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Author Topic: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers  (Read 820 times)

Offline Clymer

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Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« on: May 07, 2012, 03:04:23 AM »
A crazy comparison, I know! But let's just say that this week I had a 4 hour plane trip and forgot to bring a book... inflight magazine Sodoku will only take you so far.

So there I was flying over Nebraska and Iowa, as I always do, making up army lists in my head and trying to figure out what I would do with missile troops, besides the detachment+soulfire+helpit+cannonshot situation. Why did they have to make an already marginal choice a full point more? Why couldn't they be more like my leadbelchers? So, I started making the comparison.

I was thinking about the unit of 4 leadbelchers I like. With a musician they come in at 182 points. But dang, if it doesn't turn out that 20 crossbowmen or handgunners comes in at... 180 points. Not an endorsement of one or the other mind you, just a comparison with some interesting wins going to the state troops.

So how does 182 points of leadies compare to 180 points of state troops?

- The leadies get 4-24 shots, averaging 14 shots per turn. The state troops always get 20 shots. Advantage: State Troops
- The leadies have BS3, like state troops, but can move up to 6" and shoot without paying a penalty. Because they can move and shoot, and also because they stand a chance of contributing more to your own combat resolution than your opponents in combat, leadbelchers are a lot more likely to be in short range when they fire. State troops can give up the -1 AP for a 30" range, but can't move and shoot. Advantage: Leadbelchers.
- Leadbelchers cannot stand and shoot, state troops can. Advantage: State troops
- Leadbelchers are S4, T4, A3 W3. In combat... well, I'll just stop right there. Advantage: Leadbelchers
- On Panic: Leadbelchers have 12 wounds to the state troops 20 and both have LD7. But everytime the leadbelchers lose a single ogre, they're up against the panic check. Furthermore, the leadbelchers are frequently outside of the Inspiring Presence and Hold Your Ground bubbles because of all the more important, large footprint units that are occupying that space. Meanwhile, the state troops can use the LD of the parent unit, usually 8 or more. Advantage: State Troops.
- On Buffs: The leadbelchers when buffed by Gut Magic can become ferocious combat machines, and they can become more survivable and therefore, shoot longer. The state troops can gain benefits from a parent unit that aren't as good over all, but the possibility of flaming attacks alone makes me say... Advantage: draw.
- Leadelchers are special choices, state troops are core. Advantage: state troops.

So, overall, I do think the leadbelchers are quite a bit better. In truth, the leadbelchers are still among the first things to get pared down or go completely when I build and ogre list. But this comparison has led me to believe that our state missile troops have their uses, albeit limited and that the 9 point price tag isn't totally absurdly out of line with the leadbelchers for comparison's sake. It may be completely absurdly out of line with the Empire fluff and with the effectiveness of BS based shooting though.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Padre

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 06:54:36 AM »
9 points! It's crazy. Your comparison is nice, your hints at the comparison with other Empire true (cf. Outriders handgunners are stupidly over priced).

I own about 80 painted handgunners in various forms - standard, Arab empire, Pirate empire (i.e. two themed empire armies). 9 points. Bah!

For the second time since 1983, GW has annoyed me. (The first time was 4th ed. rules.)
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 06:57:42 AM »
For the second time since 1983, GW has annoyed me. (The first time was 4th ed. rules.)


Remember ! THEY made it personal !
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Offline Padre

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 08:51:45 AM »
Jeez, Warhammerlord_Soth, I had no idea it was personal. So they were actually thinking of me when they came up with 4th ed, knowing it would 'p' me off. Oh boy, that puts a whole new slant on my utterly powerless anger.
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Offline Dosiere

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 08:59:16 AM »
Yeah man it is personal.  I actually went to pick up the new Army Book while the Varnish was drying on my new unit of 40 Swordsmen.  They know.

Anyway, GW seems to be really kicking most missile troops while they're down in 8th edition.  I think I like the idea of missile troops having a side role compared to your melee forces, at least in theory.  I can't say I've ever heard someone say they like playing against gunlines anyway.  Then again, they gave us the new Helblaster so who knows.  But yeah - 9 points indeed - it's hard to put them in a list, maybe even harder than Swordsmen.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 09:03:07 AM by Dosiere »

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 09:03:41 AM »
Remember ! THEY made it personal !

No, they just aren't very good at writing rules.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
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Offline Kolberg

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 10:20:35 AM »
In a battle of 20 Xbows vs 4 leadbelchers I would bet all my money on the leadbelchers.

It's just that they are way more versatile. They shoot nearly as good, they are faster and, the most important part I think, they don't melt away in close combat. Sure, they are not the uber killy monsters, but they are still ogres. In close combat they will give a good fight while the xbows will.... die and do not much else.

The problem ist just, that the empire missile troops are too lumbering and are only good at shooting but they don't even do that very well.

And it's a shame I have way too many muskets and love them so much ^^
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 10:37:31 AM »
Hmm, that comparison sounds actually rather close on paper. What range do LB's have? Fighting against each other, it probably depends on who gets to shoot first. 20 crossbows shooting first are likely to take out one Ogre which apparently means they'd struggle to come out on top. LB's moving and shooting will take a while to get into CC. Even then it's not so clear cut because Crossbows are more likely to have a rank, and on a unit of 20 it's entirely possible to see a standard (screw an 8 point difference, that's still not relevant).
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 11:07:23 AM »
Remember ! THEY made it personal !

No, they just aren't very good at writing rules.


And how is that not personal?
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 11:55:22 AM »
Seriously guys, some of oyu act as if GW rules were a matter of life or death. It's much more important!

Someone had to say it...  :-D
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 12:00:58 PM »
Allright, thread derailed.


Mission accomplished.


Back on track now : Although I would (and do) take 6 leadbelchers to the field, somehow it does not equate to as many points in handgunners.


For one thing, the handgunners would take up much more deployment space, an issue that has not been adressed yet, I believe...
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Offline Noght

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 12:48:53 PM »
And the Leadbelchers have an effective range of 30" because of Move and Shoot with no penalties.  They can stay out of range of Handgunners and step in and shoot with no penalty.  Usually run in units of 6 they are devastating, the new Flamers actually due to cost for D6 shots.  There really is no comparison, Leadbelchers are one of the best missle units in the game and obviously Empire Missle units aren't.

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Offline Joey_Boy

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 01:31:29 PM »
Yeah, if Empire wants missile troops it's all about archers for core and outriders for special.

Offline Noght

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 01:59:44 PM »
Yeah, if Empire wants missile troops it's all about archers for core and outriders for special.

Methinks all this early Archer love will get old fast when you figure out they can't hit crap and won't wound even if they do.  Spend the points on Outriders or even Pistoliers if you MUST have ranged.  Clearly there is a trend to overcost shooting, no competitive Empire list will have BS based core which is too bad because Handgunners are so Iconic for Empire.

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Offline angrypriest

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 02:02:31 PM »
I field 2 x 6 Unit Leadbelchers in my Ogre Army. They rock. In fact they pretty much won the game for me Thursday gone.

There is no comparison with Empire small-arms fire. All the latter are gone from my Empire list.

Offline Clymer

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 02:47:45 PM »
On the foot print issue: The leadbelchers have the same foot print as approximately 16 crossbowmen, which is a mathematical advantage for the leadbelchers. But even better, the leadbelchers can deploy 2x2 so that their frontage is narrower which makes more room inside the BSB and General bubbles for other units and also reduces their vulnerability to enemy attacks in combat, and also let's them manouver better while fitting into tighter spaces. One could argue that the footprint of the state troops being naturally wider can create a kind of defensive barrier (i.e., warmachine hunters and flankers will have further to go to do their job) and while this is important, I still think the advantage here is going to go to: Leadbelchers.

Hmm, that comparison sounds actually rather close on paper. What range do LB's have? Fighting against each other, it probably depends on who gets to shoot first. 20 crossbows shooting first are likely to take out one Ogre which apparently means they'd struggle to come out on top. LB's moving and shooting will take a while to get into CC. Even then it's not so clear cut because Crossbows are more likely to have a rank, and on a unit of 20 it's entirely possible to see a standard (screw an 8 point difference, that's still not relevant).

I don't know, let's work it out:

Deployment
Just because I would do it this way: Leadies deploy exactly on the line. Crossbows deploy 5 inches back from the line

Turn 1
Let's say leadies get first turn. They move forward 6" and fire, doing on average 3 wounds.
The crossbowmen return fire, doing on average, three wounds. Ogres take a panic check.

Turn 2
The leadies move 6" and shoot. They now do an average of 2 wounds.
The crossbowmen return fire, doing an average of 2.5 wounds. 50/50 chance of losing an ogre and forcing another panic test.

Turn 3
Let's just say that we've got three leadies left, one has a single wound remaining. They move forward 6" and shoot, now at close range. They cause an average of 4 wounds and cause a panic test on the 15 remaining crossbows!
The crossbows hold though and return fire. Also at close range now, they do 3 wounds, dropping an ogre and a half. The ogres take a panic test.

Turn 4
The ogres decide it's time to charge. At 11", this is a likely proposition for them.
The crossbows stand and fire, causing 2 wounds and dropping an ogre, the remaining ogre is left with 2 wounds and takes a panic test.
Combat. Since the Leadbelchers have been passing all their panic tests, I'm going to let the crossbowmen pass their fear test. Also, I'm going to give the leadie just one impact hit since I've let a couple of other fractions fall their way, they lose this one. Let's just say he wounds with his impact hit though. Now, with no models in the back rank, the crossbows attack first with 4 attacks. On average, they do 1 wound. The leadie attacks back and stomps, doing 2 wounds. The leadie, by himself wins combat by 3 (with the charge bonus) but the crossbows are steadfast!
At the bottom of turn 4, the crossbowmen take the last wound of the leadbelcher before he gets to swing.

Final Result: 4 dead leadbelchers and 8 living crossbowmen who still have 2 turns of shooting left to do. That's even with the critical math breaking in favor of the leadbelchers (i.e., getting first turn, keeping a full leadbelcher for an extra turn and passing at least three panic checks). Crazy as it seems, in this scenario, 180 points of crossbows are much better than 182 points of leadbelchers! It's even much worse still for the leadbelchers if the Empire gets first turn, because they are likely to take a panic check before doing a thing. Their diminished number of shots means that the wounds caused/sustained ratio is going to be really bad for them.

... However, this overlooks one major issue: This scenario is never actually going to happen. Leadbelchers aren't really used for straight up fights with their opposite number, they're used for taking out fast cav and light units on the flank, or maybe occupying a building to provide covering fire. In any case, the crossbows will have much higher priorities for shooting if they are facing ogres, such as mournfangs, maneaters and blocks of ogres. Furthermore, the crossbows are actually getting charged on turn 2 or 3, instead of turn 4 because while my lone leadbelchers would only walk 6" per turn, the nearby sabretusks and mournfangs are marching 16" a turn and charging with swiftstride.  In light of all that, I am still much more likely to take 4 leadbelchers as an ogre player than I am to take 20 crossbows as an empire player.   
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Clymer

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2012, 02:53:32 PM »
Yeah, if Empire wants missile troops it's all about archers for core and outriders for special.

Methinks all this early Archer love will get old fast when you figure out they can't hit crap and won't wound even if they do.  Spend the points on Outriders or even Pistoliers if you MUST have ranged.  Clearly there is a trend to overcost shooting, no competitive Empire list will have BS based core which is too bad because Handgunners are so Iconic for Empire.

Noght

I think of archers foremost as a distractor unit that is highly manuverable and stubborn in woods or near their parent unit. If they also happen to do a wound or two, so much the better! They also have a tendency to get ignored so they have been pretty good for me in sweeping up warmachines that survive into the last turn or two of the game. Also, their targets tend to be universally weak. If I can pick off a single skaven weapon team (I'm just as happy if they do this by charging than if they had done it with shooting) or plink just a wound or two off of a fast cav unit or chariot, then I'm satisfied with their offensive output.

If you're thinking of them as primarily a missile fire unit, then I totally agree: you won't get far with archers.

On outriders... man I just can't understand why these guys are the popular choice. When you take outriders in your list, you are simply giving their points to your opponent. The odds of them ever making it back are slim to none. Pistoliers, while lacking the potential offensive output of outriders actually stand a chance (however slim) of surviving the game and are likely to take a couple of supporting units with them if they go. They may not hit much with their shooting, but I'll happily charge them into a unit of shades, or skinks or any fast cav or warmachine that happens by. That said, I hesitate to use either.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 03:05:09 PM by Clymer »
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2012, 03:01:59 PM »
This scenario is never actually going to happen.

Oh. That's too bad.

Quote
Leadbelchers aren't really used for straight up fights with their opposite number, they're used for taking out fast cav and light units on the flank

Such as DGK...  :-D
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Offline Clymer

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2012, 03:06:38 PM »
Such as DGK...  :-D

Yes, this is where the leadies earn their salted thinling meat.
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Offline Moriar

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2012, 04:41:08 PM »
- On Buffs: The leadbelchers when buffed by Gut Magic can become ferocious combat machines, and they can become more survivable and therefore, shoot longer. The state troops can gain benefits from a parent unit that aren't as good over all, but the possibility of flaming attacks alone makes me say... Advantage: draw.

You forget that they can gain stubborn from the parent unit. Any units of shooting nowadays should be taken as a detachment to your Greatswords or State Troops w/Crown of Command character. Its hard to kill 20 shooters in one round of combat. This could set up some sick flank attacks.

Now dont forget WP spells and hatred too.

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Offline rothgar13

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2012, 05:38:17 PM »
I don't think we should be comparing Leadies to Handgunners/Crossbowmen to begin with - they're a multipurpose unit that comes out of Special points, whereas Empire missile troops have a singular purpose and come out of Core. I think a much closer comparison can be achieved by comparing them to Outriders. Breaking it down...

Cost - You get 2 Outriders for the price of 1 Leadbelcher, with one point floating about. That's about even. Advantage: Neither.

Shooting ability - 2 Outriders shoot 6 times at BS4 (albeit they eat a -1 for multiple shots), a Leadie shoots D6 times. Advantage: Outriders.

Stand-and-shoot - Outriders can do it (to devastating effect), Leadies can't. Advantage: Outriders.

Durability - Leadbelchers have T4/3W/6+ defenses, 2 Outriders have T3/2W/5+, but one Wound will lose you 3 shots. Advantage: Leadbelchers.

Combat ability - Outriders are nothing to write home about in combat (4 WS3 S3 attacks when the Horses are taken into account), whereas Leadies are competent (3 WS3 S4 attacks) - and let's not discount the Impact Hits and Stomps. Advantage: Leadbelchers.

Mobility - Outriders have superior movement and are Fast Cavalry, but Leadies get to move and shoot. I say that's too close to call. Advantage: Neither.

If you look at it this way, I think Outriders stack up fairly well with what was correctly noted as one of the better small-arms firing units in Warhammer.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 07:17:33 PM by rothgar13 »

Offline Padre

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2012, 07:21:23 PM »
... I think Outriders stack up fairly well with what was correctly noted as one of the better small-arms firing units in Warhammer.

I think it only feels like they 'stack up fairly well' if you own some of the models and not around 80 painted handgunners!
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Offline rothgar13

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Re: Missile bearing state troops vs. Leadbelchers
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2012, 07:26:36 PM »
That changes nothing about how Outriders stack up with Leadbelchers - it just means Handgunners are less efficient. And it's not all that unexpected, honestly - they're a Core choice. That said, they still get to shoot a lot more often (just no move-and-shoot) and they have a lot more Wounds to absorb damage with. It's not all bad.