Topic: Eldar - need a guide

[Nicholas Bies]

Hey,

So I've picked up some Eldar and plan on using them in a tourney come November. But I've never really played 40k competitively so have no real idea of what works. My last army was just a guard army based on a Australian Infantry company and it managed to destroy everything I played against 

At the moment I have:

Farseer
3 Warlocks
5 Dire Avengers
10 Guardians
6 Fire Dragons
6 Scorpions
5 Harlequins (should have 6 need to go down to the LGS and bitch about finecast).
1 wave serpent
1 war walker.


So I was thinking with the models I have of having an army along the lines of:

Seer Council - farseer with Doom & Fortune, warlocks 1 with embolden, 2 with destructor

6 fire dragons with exarch and firepike, tank hunters in wave serpent with TL shuriken cannon, Shuriken cannon, holofields
6 scorpions with exarch with biting blade, scouts and move through cover
5/6 Harlequins with shadow seer, 1 fusion pistol, 5/6 rending

5 dire avengers with bladestorm, exarch with two shuriken catapults
10 guardians with Bright lance support weapon

War Walker with 2xScatter lasers



I'm thinking of expanding the army with another battalion but would just like some ideas on what works in the codex etc. cause I want to focus on my painting with this army so don't want to spend too much cash and time working out an uber competitive army just a decent one that can hold it's own.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Scroll down this page [i dont know how to link] but theres a great guide called "Irisado's Eldar Guide and other Eldar related material "

[Irisado]

If you're going to go with mixed Eldar, you need a minimum of two Wave Serpents, and if you're playing 1500 points or more, you'll need three.  It's too easy to destroy the mechanised wing otherwise, and mixed Eldar armies falter very badly if the mechanised wing is eliminated early in the game.

A lot of the units in your proposed list are too small, and not especially well equipped, so I think that your priority is to strengthen your existing units, and then consider how you wish to formulate your army.

There is a guide (see my signature for the link).

Crimsonsphinx: If you want to know how to link, send me a PM and I'll teach you.

[Nicholas Bies]

Well I've since expanded my Eldar.

I have played a 1k game against Dark Eldar and shredded my opponent - scatter lasers on the walker and TL shuriken cannon + shuriken cannon on the serpent.

My collection as it stands:

Farseer
3 warlocks

5 harlequins
6 scorpions
6 fire dragons

20 guardians - 2 support weapons
10 dire avengers
6 path finders

2 war walkers (two scatter lasers)
2 wave serpents (probably going to be TL scatter lasers, shuriken cannon)
1 falcon - I'm thinking missile launcher here rather then bright lance for the range and cost - thoughts?

probably have a shadowseer in the harlequins + their flip belts I don't think they need a transports. My miniature seer council (plan on expanding it) will probably be depoyed with the falcon while the fire dragons will have 1 serpent and the dire avengers the other.

I'll check your link out later tonight! thanks!

[Irisado]

Mass high strength fire power is one of the Eldar's key strengths, and it's especially effective against Dark Eldar, because it shreds their light vehicles and infantry with equal measure.  In fact, Dark Eldar tends to be one of the easier match ups for Eldar, even though the former have a newer codex.

I can't say that I agree with the Harlequins using a craftworld transport in terms of the background, but it's your army, so it's your choice.

For the Falcon and Wave Serpents, the priorities are Spirit Stones, and, in the case of the former, Holofields.  Equipping the Falcon with an EML is only necessary if you're going to use it defensively, or you're lacking in anti-tank fire power.  Otherwise, something cheaper with multiple shots  is better.

Expanding the Warlock squad is essential if you want to use them in my view.

I hope that helps.

[FR1DAY]

in the original rouge trader compendium the harlequins are transported around in a stolen land raider with bunting!

[Crimsonsphinx]

Mass high strength fire power is one of the Eldar's key strengths, and it's especially effective against Dark Eldar, because it shreds their light vehicles and infantry with equal measure.  In fact, Dark Eldar tends to be one of the easier match ups for Eldar, even though the former have a newer codex.

I can't say that I agree with the Harlequins using a craftworld transport in terms of the background, but it's your army, so it's your choice.

For the Falcon and Wave Serpents, the priorities are Spirit Stones, and, in the case of the former, Holofields.  Equipping the Falcon with an EML is only necessary if you're going to use it defensively, or you're lacking in anti-tank fire power.  Otherwise, something cheaper with multiple shots  is better.

Expanding the Warlock squad is essential if you want to use them in my view.

I hope that helps.

Id disagree with some of those statements Irisado.  Eldar only do mass s6 firepower, anything above that costs an arm and a leg.  EML and Brightlances are both horribly over costed for bs3 models.

Generally I go with Scatter lasers on everything, unless points are tight, then I go with Shurikan cannons.  Bright lances have two viable platforms IMO which is on a wave serpent turret or Wraithlord.  Id avoid EMLs on anything that isn't a warwalker or a Wraithlord.

Personally I consider the tank upgrades to be horribly expensive.  Holofields on a Falcon are okay, but I wouldn't bother with the others.

[Nicholas Bies]

Well as I'm sure you'll notice I do lack any high str AT apart from the firedragons but only 36" range has me wondering if a BL is the right choice.

Every other weapon I have is a scatter laser haha.

[Irisado]

in the original rouge trader compendium the harlequins are transported around in a stolen land raider with bunting!

I know that, but thank you for reminding me of just how bad some of the old background was.  Thankfully, that was replaced by superior quality background for the Harlequins.

Id disagree with some of those statements Irisado.  Eldar only do mass s6 firepower, anything above that costs an arm and a leg.  EML and Brightlances are both horribly over costed for bs3 models.

It depends.  You can get away with using EMLs and Brightlances on these platforms, but only in large numbers.  It also wouldn't be my preference, but some players like it.

My view is actually more or less the same as yours, in that both of these weapons are at their best when mounted on Wave Serpents or Wraithlords.

Personally I consider the tank upgrades to be horribly expensive.  Holofields on a Falcon are okay, but I wouldn't bother with the others.

You won't go anywhere without Spirit Stones.  Stunned results basically ruin you're day if you're playing mixed Eldar, because you lose the chance to time your attack correctly.  Make your opponent work hard by forcing him/her to inflict immobilised results on your vehicles to stop them from moving, it makes it much harder for your attack to be neutralised.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I only put stones on my scoring Wave Serpants.  Those carrying other units I save the points on.   Nearly every unit and upgrade in the eldar book is over priced, so I have to cut corners somewhere. 

I am the first to admit my own success with eldar in 5th has been close to rubbish.  The theory is there, and I usually find myself competitive, but actually winning is quite difficult to do.  Maybe I need to go out and buy more fire dragons so I can field three units!   

Quite characterfully my eldar live in the past, reliving glories of 2nd edition.  Plus I persist with "suboptimal" choices because that is my theme     That said, I do understand enough to offer advice to someone wanting to play more competitively than myself.

[Nicholas Bies]

expanded my army again got a 3rd walker, more firedragons and more scorpions (to flesh the scorpions to 10 in a squad).

Got a 3 way campaign game on the weekend.

1500pts each Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space marines but the space marine player has 2 armies so gets 2250pts instead of 1500.

I have 1500pts + I get the following special rules:
+209pts to spend
+2 special slots (i.e. 2 extra elite/fast/heavy of my chocie).

I also have a veteran squad of fire dragons (from my previous games) so regular FD but BS5 nor 4 lol + exarch with crack shot, 2+to hit, 2+ to wound, re-roll to wound, AP1 no cover saves! HAHAHA

Anyway I'll give an updated model list - any help with a list would be appreciated:

Farseer
3 warlocks - 1 with singing speer

12 Scorpions
12 fire dragons (my elite squad can only be 6 men)
5 harlequins

10 dire avengers
20 guardians - 2x scatter lasers

2 wave serpents - both with shuriken cannons, 1 has TL shuriken cannons the other has TL scatter lasers

3 War Walkers - all with 2x Scatter lasers

Falcon - pulse cannon + scatter laser

[Crimsonsphinx]

Warwalkers are very efficient units.  I love mine, all with twin scatter lasers, they rip apart even marines reasonably well, if guided and doomed 

How are you finding guardians?  I really struggle to see why I would want to use them, they end up being just wound counters for one horribly inaccurate heavy weapon.

[Delthos]

I've not played my Eldar in 5th edition or with the current Codex. I'm planning to pull them out and paint up some of my unpainted stuff for 6th edition. I ran a Biel-Tan list in 3rd and 4th Edition and was quite successful with it. From looking at how the game currently plays I know they wouldn't be as effective anymore. Besides the fact that I can't even field them like I could with the old Craftworld Codex. I need to assemble and paint lots of Dire Avengers if I want to field them as a true Biel Tan force.

Definitely looking at the codex, guardians don't seem to be worth the points investment. I was never overly fond of them with the old codex, other than the fact that they were a better choice that Dire Avengers.

I'm hoping that 6th edition will give Eldar a little boost. Hopefully they'll be one of early Codex for 6th as well. It's been a while since we've had a new book now. One of the oldest if I'm not mistaken.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I beleive they are the oldest 4th edition codex still around Delthos.

[Irisado]

Warwalkers are very efficient units.  I love mine, all with twin scatter lasers, they rip apart even marines reasonably well, if guided and doomed 

How are you finding guardians?  I really struggle to see why I would want to use them, they end up being just wound counters for one horribly inaccurate heavy weapon.

You've contradicted yourself to a certain extent here, in that you're singing the praises of War Walkers armed with Scatter Lasers (rightly in my view), yet Guardian squads can perform a similar fire support role when equipped with a Scatter Laser, and it takes more fire power on your opponent's part to neutralise a Guardian squad than one War Walker, for example.  The Guardians also have the advantage of being able to score, which is important not to overlook.

They are only wound counters if you use them in that way.  You can't just hold back against all armies throughout the game, as this isn't playing to the unit's strength.  Being able to move and fire a heavy weapon is their bonus.  Other Eldar fire support infantry, such as Rangers and Dark Reapers, don't have that luxury.  The idea with Guardians is to soften up the opposition first with other units, and then have them move up in support.  Will it always work?  No, because Guardians are fragile, and are vulnerable to certain types of attack which are difficult to protect them from (deep strikes being the most obvious), but it's always worth considering, as Guardians need not be immobile 'wounds' as you put it, that's just one (inefficient) way of using them.

I need to assemble and paint lots of Dire Avengers if I want to field them as a true Biel Tan force.

No you don't.  Never was there a more false representation of how Eldar craftworlds are comprised than the third edition supplementary craftworld codex.  For more details take a look here.  In fact, Biel-Tan is the craftworld which is closest to what you might call a 'vanilla' concept, i.e. as long as Aspect Warriors are in the majority overall, it doesn't matter which other unit types you field.

Definitely looking at the codex, guardians don't seem to be worth the points investment. I was never overly fond of them with the old codex, other than the fact that they were a better choice that Dire Avengers.

The only issue is the range of their Shuriken Catapults is six inches too short.  I've play tested them extensively with an 18" range, and it solves all of their problems.  For ways in which to use them see my comments above.

I'm hoping that 6th edition will give Eldar a little boost. Hopefully they'll be one of early Codex for 6th as well. It's been a while since we've had a new book now. One of the oldest if I'm not mistaken.

I beleive they are the oldest 4th edition codex still around Delthos.

The Tau codex is definitely older by a few months.  I'm also pretty sure that the Black Templars codex is the oldest of the current crop.

Nicholas Bies: I don't write army lists for people, as it isn't of much help to impose my play style on others.  Build the list that you think you would like to field, and I'll offer advice accordingly .

[Crimsonsphinx]

I don't think I have contradicted myself Irisado.

1 10 man guardian squad with a scatter laser is what, 95 points?  For this price you can just about get 2 warwalkers armed with 4 scatter lasers between them.  A total no brainer since catapults are garbage.  Guardians are massively over priced. 

A guardian is no better than an imperial guardsman, and the squad is less flexible as it can't have a special and a heavy weapon.  5 points for a guardian would seem about right.

The problem with this is that eldar are supposed to be a dying race, so fielding hordes of expendible models is also a bad idea.  What they should do is give guardians both bs and ws 4, and improve the shuri-catapult to be range 18 assault 2 for everyone.  They can keep them at 8 points each then.

[Delthos]

I need to assemble and paint lots of Dire Avengers if I want to field them as a true Biel Tan force.

No you don't.  Never was there a more false representation of how Eldar craftworlds are comprised than the third edition supplementary craftworld codex.  For more details take a look here.  In fact, Biel-Tan is the craftworld which is closest to what you might call a 'vanilla' concept, i.e. as long as Aspect Warriors are in the majority overall, it doesn't matter which other unit types you field.

In your view sure, but not in my view of Biel-Tan. For me its all Aspect Warriors except for vehicle pilots, Farseers, Wraithlorads, maybe Autarchs, and possibly an Avatar if I ever get the desire to field one.

18" range would definitely be welcome for Shuriken Catapults, although that would start getting the Dire Avengers closer to the not worth it category again.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Delthos, really there needs to be a bs4 tank crew aspect warrior!   

My view of Biel-Tan is the same as yours, all aspects.  None of those useless guardians littering the place.

[Delthos]

To true! It always annoyed me that my Falcons had BS 3 while Fire Prisms had BS4.

[Irisado]

In your view sure, but not in my view of Biel-Tan. For me its all Aspect Warriors except for vehicle pilots, Farseers, Wraithlorads, maybe Autarchs, and possibly an Avatar if I ever get the desire to field one.

In that case you have a misunderstanding of the background of Biel-Tan.  Read any codex bar the third edition craftworld codex (see the current codex for a clear example - Aspect Warriors are noted as being numerous, that's it, nothing about them comprising the entire army), and read the Epic Swordwind background, and army list, and you will see that this idea that Aspect Warriors are the only units allowed in Biel-Tan lists is just wrong.  I don't just make stuff like this up, there is quite a bit of evidence to support this position .

The third edition craftworld codex was an anomaly, badly written, and poorly balanced.  It's best left in the past where it belongs.

Now, to get this discussion back on topic, the list of models in Nicholas' army collection would actually fit a Biel-Tan list quite well.  Apart from the Harlequins, it's a pretty vanilla list, so closest to Biel-Tan in terms of theme.

[Delthos]

You are right, we can argue all day long about what is and isn't right. Fortunately for me, Farseer Ancalla Vash just told me that I'm right. Seeing how he leads my Biel-Tan army of Aspect warriors with no guardians on foot, I'm not going to argue with him. He knows the Biel-Tan better than either of us!