Topic: Griffon Conversions legality with size and base difs (particularly IoB)

[Freman Bloodglaive]

In that case don't convert. Just use the model exactly as it came from GW. That should save argument. 

[Kenny21586]

So is the main issue then just people thinking you are trying to gain an unfair advantage using a small base? At this stage its mostly for the modeling and i don't play tournaments now but its worth knowing if i decide too. In this case how would it go down if i used the old base yet kept a chariot base or even an appropriatly sized movement try on the side so if someone complained i could just stick the small base on top of the bigger one (or in the tray) with some blue tack and then play as that?

As far as the model itself goes then as long as its somewhat similar to what its meant to be that'll work. I ask as i'm also contemplating following the trend  of using thunderwolfs instead of demi-grifs, i mean how far can i go with alternate models? Is it fine as long as there GW, could i use Bret knights instead of Emp knights if i prefer their look ( i don't but for arguments sake)? And how much harm is it to use a different company's models?, I know they want you to spend your money at GW but adding a few others for flavour should be kosher, eh?

[Darknight]

an appropriatly sized movement try on the side so if someone complained i could just stick the small base on top of the bigger one (or in the tray) with some blue tack and then play as that?

This.

I think that is the way to go if people are all up in arms about it.

The problem with arguing against Rothgar's point of "current model's size" is that one could game the issue to hell. I think Rothgar's point is the right one, although there should be an understanding in friendly games of "grandfathering" in pieces which were converted to fit with an earlier base size (such as pre-new Gryphon Gryphons on 50mm or even 40mm bases).

What happens in 40K tournaments with the old vs the new (which is not so new now) Rhino? The old one is a little smaller, thus easier to hide etc.

[PhillyT]

My standard answer is the rules in the current BRB states use the base the model came with and if it didn't come with a base place it on an appropriately sized base. That's it. No more discussion.

Exactly!

If GW thought this actually mattered they would specify base sizes in each unit entry (like they used to).

But that then implies that you are using the correct model from the book the model is meant to represent.

Griffins in an empire army should either be an older griffin model for empire and mounted on their 40mm or 50mm (the 6th edition one for example) or on a chariot base, regardless of the army the model came from.  IoB griffins are great, but if they are using the new statline they should be mounted on an appropriately large base.

[Swan-of-War]

But my cannon-fire has less chance of hitting a Griffin on a 40mm than one on a chariot base.  The converter, intentional or not, is at an advantage for fielding a smaller-sized base.  Its not hard to rebase a model - if the base size changes, just cut out the appropriate size in plastic.

This exact thing happened against me with an older metal Giant.  My cannon fire barely hit him on his smaller base (50mm?) whereas a newer Giant would have been clearly hit.  Normally I wouldn't mind older models, but this player had access to a new giant the week before and I feel he took the smaller model so as to avoid my cannons.  A dick move

[PhillyT]

If you bought the 6th edition model though, it came with the 50mm base so that is the legal base.

The IoB griffin isn't even an Empire model.  If you choose to use it, it should be placed on the current base.

[Borgio the Besieger]

The whining continues. Yeah! I converted my IOB griffon into an imperial one BEFORE the new griffon model came out and I used the base that the model came with per the current rules I might add.   

With all of the new monsters models that came with Storm of Magic there were older versions on smaller bases. GW doesn't see it as a major advantage one way or the other. The larger models require a larger base and also come with a larger price tag.

I have GW "official" versions of all these monsters which are smaller monsters on smaller bases. I'm not going to rush right out and buy all the new monsters just because you whine about base size which in the new rule means nothing. Use the base the model came with per the BRB.

Whining about it is the "dick" move.

[MrAbyssal]

KInda curious to know just how much bigger the new one is compared to the old 4th and 6th ed ones. I have both the old ones and thinking that of the new one is much bigger, then the old ones can be relegated (or promoted) to the Warhammer Quest box...

I still really love the pose on the 6th ed one though so I'd love to use it f it wasn't silly small compared to the new one.

[Borgio the Besieger]

The new one is at least twice as big as the older model. Hence the larger base size needed to put it on. Don't get me wrong I love the new model and bought one because its is so cool looking. I'll use it even if I am at a disadvantage because it has a larger base.  And I will NOT WHINE about it.

[PhillyT]

I think it is only fair to your opponent to put models on the current base.  If you have an older model, then thats perfectly fine, but the IoB griffin isn't even an empire model.  It represents a griffin that is far less powerful than an imperial version.  If you use it, the least you can do is put it on the proper empire base.  Saving money through the IoB griffin is fine, but claiming it is on the right base for the model ignores the fact that the model isn't even the right model for the unit it is representing.

[Borgio the Besieger]

You are using the base the model came on. As the rules state.

I have a problem with the Book of Hoeth. I think its only fair that everyones wizards be on equal footing and I should have a chance to dispel. However it is a perfectly legal item to take in a High Elf army. So I don't whine about it when my opponent takes it.

[PhillyT]

Yeah, and you are using a high elf model in an empire army.

[rufus sparkfire]

Isn't this discussion pointless anyway since griffons are rubbish? It's going to die uselessly no matter what size base it's on.

Yeah, and you are using a high elf model in an empire army.

That's daft Phil. It's a griffon.

Or should Empire players not be using that Bretonnian pegasus either?

[PhillyT]

It isn't an imperial griffin.  It has different stats.  I wouldn't have a problem with someone using it, but I would want the same base size as the unit it is representing.

[rufus sparkfire]

Any griffon being used in an Empire army is an Imperial Griffon.

The older metal griffons have the same stats as the new fat pigeon, despite being half the size.

[Siberius]

I am with Rufus on this one. Plus I had to switch 30 ungors onto smaller bases to fit with the new ones but I shrugged as I had the bases lying around. Ordering a chariot base from GW is like $5 + $8 shipping, rediculous!

If someone got really uppity about it I would just let them count the extra base width behind.

[PhillyT]

If you are producing models to represent a model from another army, the least you can do is match the base size of the model you are choosing to represent.  To do otherwise, especially when you are using significantly smaller bases, is unfair to your opponent.  Older models from the same army are grandfathered in.

rufus:  The IoB griffin is not an Imperial griffin.  If you convert it to be one, it is but should follow the same base size rules of the model you are using it to represent.

I don't think this is a huge issue, but to complain that someone who doesn't like it is whining isn't fair to that person.  Plenty of people will use the smaller base size to gain advantage not for asthetic reasons.

[Syn Ace]

I used to have to play against the father of all rules exploiters and he used to be a real dick about taking advantage of base size whenever he could so I guess I'm a little more neurotic about it. Anyway, if you don't want to rebase because you don't want to spend a couple of dollars that's fine I don't blame you. Just cut out a piece of paper or cardboard or plasticard that corresponds to the base size of an imperial griffon and when you move into combat, just put the griffon on top of it. That will let you and your opponent know which models can hit it.  If you whine about that solution as infringing on your rights to run the model 'with the base it came on', you're now just being gamey.

[PhillyT]

Especially considering that the IoB griffin isn't the same type of griffin as the Imperial Griffin.  They have completely different rules.  The same base size argument gets invalidated when you try to use a model for a different one, as it is in this case.  If you chose to use the IoB griffin as an Imperial griffin, at least put it on the appropriate base.

[Fandir Nightshade]

I think nobody would be strict if you use any griffon model out of the GW line not even on the GW tournaments. Otherwise I have problems with my Captasus.

[Darknight]

To reduce to absurdity the argument being advanced against PhillyT; someone fields count-as DGKs converted from Thunderwolves. They come on a round base.

If it is okay to convert (now) the IoB HE gryphon to be an Imperial gryphon and keep it on the base it came on, why not Thunderwolves?

This is the same argument - unless we want to introduce additional details to the exceptions, making a case for cross-game changes.

I think if you convert a model from a different line you should base it on the appropriate base when you make the conversion. Then, it can be grandfathered in.

So, an IoB gryphon made six months ago into an ImpGryph would be 50mm square, made now would be 50x100mm.

Otherwise, it is a bit of a cheat, no?

[PhillyT]

It depends.  Previous Empire models are grandfathered in.  But models from other armies shouldn't be brought in unless they at least match the base size.  The biggest issue is that the bases being used are half the size of the current model.  The IoB doesn't get a pass just because it is current because it isn't even Empire model.  How is that any more fair than taking a Wood elf eagle, sticking the butt off the lions for the white lion chariot on it and calling at a griffin?  It is a griffin because I made it look like one, but the eagle comes with a 50mm base so thats the one I left it on.

[Fandir Nightshade]

They should introduce base size lists of models and be done with it.

[Syn Ace]

Agreed. They are far too lax when it comes to standardizing anything. And they suck at making their rules as watertight as possible. Not that these are revelations or anything.

[Judgex83]

What should be done is in the BRB they need to standardize what size base things go on. I remember when I used to play my chaos it bothered me that marauders were on 25mm aswell as warriors. Warriors justify the base size but marauders do not. It used to bug my friend when I played galrauch because galrauch came with 40mm base and for what he was that was a bit unfair. A lvl 4 caster dragon that new all the spells of tzeenth Ws6 S6 T6 6W with 2 breath weapons he could use every turn this was 7th edition before ppl start saying "no you cant". So as much as it sucks im for players having to rebase models if it keeps things in line. I had a deathwing army that had the original terminators that came on 25mm and i bit the bullet and rebased them to the appropriate size, later I eventually just bought the new termies but that was my own stupidity.