Topic: Facing a lot of Skaven come tournament... Need your advice.

[Daymz]

Fellow Generals,

In two week's time I'll be attending another smaller tournament (restricted 1250 Pts., list can be found here: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42460.0). Out of the 16 attendees, 4 will be Skaven alone, so the probability of me facing them is very high.

My army list can no longer be modified.

Yet, I have hardly any experience with those furry beasts! I played a total of about 2-3 games against them since their 7th edition came out, and I therefore am looking towards you for a bit of advice, and to see just what I should look out for, focus my attention on, and what could be a good winning strategy. Also, just what I might expect them to field giving the circumstances...

To help you out, while the list of restrictions is huge, these are the ones that matter for Skaven as well:

- Max. 35 models per unit
- Max. 250 Pts. per unit
- No lord choices
- No rare choices over 140 Pts. each
- Max. two warmachines, max. one template weapon
- No doom rocket
- For every unit of Skaven slaves, there must be one unit of Clan Rats
- Skaven Slaves don't count towards core
- Max. 3x the same core choice, max. 1x the same elite or rare choice

Any help is much appreciated. I know the restrictions may seem silly to some and everything, but really, I don't make the rules ; -), I'll just be happy to hear what I might be facing. Also, if you don't mean to include those restrictions, just what it is that I should be prepared for against Skaven at such points lists in general.

Thanks!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Wow, that's heavy comp. With those restrictions, it'll be like facing a completely different army!

No Slaves (35 model no core units are as good as zero). No HPA. No Doomwheel. No Grey Seer. No Weapon Teams, or only one, or just Ratling Guns. Expect to see Rat Ogres and Plague Monks, a couple of skirmishing Plague Censer Bearers (T test or die on contact, no AS), a Warp Lightning Cannon over the big mortar. Probably a handful of minor casters, which aren't too shabby. An assassin could actually wreak havoc amongst other faction's heroes but they're not liked well.

35 models and Ld 9 max are pretty serious nerfs for Skaven. Such units are relatively easily defeated. They really really draw their strength from numbers, hence the rule is aptly named.

[Ambrose]

I am not too familiar with the skaven rule book, but with all those restrictions it will be interesting.

As for tactics, you don't have much range. 

DEFENSIVE:  I would focus fire on the enemy ranged weapons (gazzells, mortars, etc) with your ranged weapons.  Skaven have low T so your hunters and outriders can do some damage.  Place them where you can harras the enemy and maybe even draw them to one of your flanks.  Once they are drawn to the flanks use your CC units to come up the middle and hit em hard. 

Use your demigryph to support your large block on the flank, or deal with the rat ogres if there are any.  My experience with the demigryphs is awsome and they work wonders in my opinion but still need to be supported depending on the target.  Can use the demigryph to watch for assassins that come out of the ground (not sure if they are assassins, but some type of unit that can come up beneath your army) but that is a waste IMO of their strength.  Use your detachments to protect your large unit's flanks.

OFFENSIVE:  Same as above, but instead of leaving your CC behind to mop up, have them advance while your ranged weaponry takes out their range.  Once in Close combat your +1 to attack from the Huricanum will be nice allowing for a lot of hits.  Watch out for their bus formations and spears.

MAGIC:  Not sure what skaven can get for so few points on the magic side.  Simple universal rules apply; don't sweat the small spells and really save dice for spells that will kill our troops.  Because of your small number of range, I'd recommend taking Lore of FIRE.  That way if you get the sig spell it can deal a bit of damage to their low T blocks.

Let us know how it turns out and what tactics worked for you.  Good luck!

[yoy1zoz2mom3]

I have played skaven and their strenght in numbers rule is annoying.

Hit them in the side to negate it and then make them pass a terror or panic test and watch them run!

Killl the warp lightning cannons and casters.

Helm of the skaven slayer+full plate+barded steed+ward save=running or dead skaven when used with ubove methods

Thats all

Yoy out

++Transmission aborted++

[Eighty]

isnt a cannon technically a template weapon? (just a long thin narrow template 60 inches long  ) hence with this comp you could bring only a volley gun and a cannon/mortar?

hiss boo tournament organizers!

[Clymer]

I think you're going to be alright. Skaven are pretty nerfed at this point level and with these comp rules. No screaming bell, no multiple template units, and just one helpit per army. It's been a while since I've looked at the skaven book, so I don't know whether they'll be able to bring a plague furnace... I think they can.

So the biggest threats you will face could be the plague furnace/plague monk horde and the steadfast rat plus a helpit combo... oh, and a warp lightening cannon.

Here's what I would do:

Deploy back from the line... you're looking for 28" of separation if you can get it. Resist the urge to vanguard your outriders up into range for an alpha strike... it never works. The vanguard move is used to divert your opponent's attention during deployment, not to get your outriders killed while setting up an over run that lets your opponent cross the field even faster.

Blast away with hurricanum, fireball and outriders. Send your hunstmen after the warp lightening cannon or weapon teams pronto. Don't shoot... charge! Once the supporting units are taken care of and if your huntsmen are still alive, they can take pot shots on the bigger units.

Your targeting priorities are, in order, the furnace, the helpit, thinning down hordes.

You should be able to smash anything else he has with your halberds and demigryphs. Best would be to angle your halberds to receive the charge and get a counter charge with detachments. Or, combo charge, taking care to maximize your output units (DGKs and Halberds) with your defensive units (DGKs and swordsmen) so that you get max hits on the enemy, but minimize the number of blows coming back on your weak defensive infantry (spearmen and halbs)

Anyway I know you said that you can't change your list, but I think the hurricanum is a bound spell, not a template warmachine. I think you could still take a cannon. I would also drop the spearman detachment altogether and either put the points towards a cannon, or use the spear as halberds and thicken the parent horde up as much as possible.

Good luck and let us know how it comes out!

[abdulaapocolyps]

I'm the first to say Skaven Are over powered but with those restrictions you'll roll over him.one of the organisers must have been molested by a skaven in his youth with those comps.
  As a warning,Chaos will be brutal with those rules,id worry about WoC if there is any...

[Daymz]

First of all, many thanks to the great feedback and analysis, this is very helpful indeed!

Just to clarify altogether: The restrictions posted apply to all armies (and then, there are those that are specifically Skaven, as they are mentioned with unit names and such). So no army can field more than 35 models per unit or go over 250 Pts. per unit etc.

Now as to adress some questions / unclarities...:

isnt a cannon technically a template weapon? (just a long thin narrow template 60 inches long  ) hence with this comp you could bring only a volley gun and a cannon/mortar?

hiss boo tournament organizers!

Exactly; Cannons are template weapons in this tournament (specifically so). Oh yeah, and by the way, Helblasters are, too, if there is an engineer in the same list! But then again, these restrictions are general, so every army only gets to take one template machine, and the dwarven equivalent to our HBVG (don't know the English wording) also counts as a template weapon, as do the goblin doomdivers.

I think you're going to be alright. Skaven are pretty nerfed at this point level and with these comp rules. No screaming bell, no multiple template units, and just one helpit per army. It's been a while since I've looked at the skaven book, so I don't know whether they'll be able to bring a plague furnace... I think they can.
(...)
Anyway I know you said that you can't change your list, but I think the hurricanum is a bound spell, not a template warmachine. I think you could still take a cannon. I would also drop the spearman detachment altogether and either put the points towards a cannon, or use the spear as halberds and thicken the parent horde up as much as possible.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken I don't even need fear facing a helpit abomination at all. Hellpits are more than 140 points, right? Then he can't utilize them, as rare choices over 140 points are disallowed altogether. Also, I honestly don't know but thought that a plague furnace always has to be ridden by a plague priest, who is a lord choice - and lords are disallowed, too.
The hurricanium is a template weapon (in the tourney restrictions, at least) as both the hurricanium and the luminark are specifically considered to be a template weapon AND one magic level (out of a max. 3 I can have in the entire army), so indeed, the only combination I could make with any of the buff wagons would be a helblaster. Without an engineer, of course.

And as the unit size capping of 35 models applies to all armies, I couldn't even put more halberds into my unit than I did now, also because they are 240 Pts. as is and may not exceed 250 ; -) but really, I appreciate the advice! I shall like to consider it on a, say, less comped tournament.

The comp indeed is quite heavy in this tournament, but there is a selection of comps considered for all armies, plus specific nerfs for all specific armies (except for Beastmen and High Elves, I believe, who are left - otherwise - unrestricted). Some also get a few reliefs from some restrictions (as Bretons, for instance, get to field more 2+ AS units than the others, or Wood Elves may field more missile troops than anyone else).

I'm the first to say Skaven Are over powered but with those restrictions you'll roll over him.one of the organisers must have been molested by a skaven in his youth with those comps.
  As a warning,Chaos will be brutal with those rules,id worry about WoC if there is any...

There is one WoC general there whom I know personally and who plays a hell of an army... And who is really good. Altogether I must say though that the comp on the WoC take a lot of the wind out there, too. Due to the regular restrictions they can't really field more than 15 Warriors in one unit (the unit must never cost more than 250 Pts. after all), and such units are susceptible to Outrider shooting even. Other than that, the barbarians are restricted, in that there may be only one unit that carries flails or great weapons.

I have, by the way, been able to play three test games in my club, one against O&G, one against Lizzies and one against Wood Elves.
I won against the Woods, massacred the Lizzies and drew against the O&G (but that was damn lucky, I got to play against that guy in the 2nd tourney scenario and that was blood and glory, and neither broke the other within all 6 turns, which in the tournament is considered a draw). Other than that, he would've crushed me (I simply hate Squighoppaz. And Doomdivers. I hate them).

I will keep you all updated, of course ; -)

[Lord Solar Plexus]

DEFENSIVE:  I would focus fire on the enemy ranged weapons (gazzells, mortars, etc) with your ranged weapons.

Killl the warp lightning cannons and casters.

Only one template weapon, so only one mortar / one Cannon / one Warp Fire Thrower in total. Jezzails aren't very scary, even though they can take out the odd knight or take a wound off a STank. They aren't optimal counters though.

I have played skaven and their strenght in numbers rule is annoying.

Yes, but with an MSU army they can't use it. With that comp, I would try to include as many unbreakable elements as possible.

I think you're going to be alright. Skaven are pretty nerfed at this point level and with these comp rules. No screaming bell, no multiple template units, and just one helpit per army.

No Hellpit - only 140 points per rare unit.

Also, I honestly don't know but thought that a plague furnace always has to be ridden by a plague priest, who is a lord choice - and lords are disallowed, too.

Plague Priests are heroes.

[Soapstar]

They could field a furnace as a naked priest on furnace comes in at exactly 250 but assuming the point limit for units affects characters too that's a very vunerable priest. 2 rounds of shooting from your outriders would reliably kill him (not the furnace tho) and at the point level your playing he would have to be the general and couldn't afford a bsb which would make the whole army very fragile to LD tests. Therefore I'd be suprised if some one took that option and if they did you should have little problem defeating them.

As pointed out those comps are going to really hamper any skaven u play against so u should do fine. Good luck

[Darknight]

They could field a furnace as a naked priest on furnace comes in at exactly 250 but assuming the point limit for units affects characters too that's a very vunerable priest.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be naked near a furnace. That is likely to result in a singed baculum.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

What kind of creature are you that you sport a baculum? 

[Ratarsed]

That's one heavy comped tourney you are attending! It makes me wonder what the organisers are trying to achieve other than take the joy out of the game for as many players as possible!
Of course you know what will happen now. You won't play a single Skaven
If I was under these restrictions I would max out on gutter runners with poison attacks and slings. One of the best units Skaven have and not hit with the comp hammer from what I can tell.

[Darknight]

What kind of creature are you that you sport a baculum? 

I am a giant anthropomorphic hedgehog. Trufax.

[Daymz]

Well... I didn't think it would matter for Skaven, but there we are: Apart from only being able to choose heroes, you can only choose a max. 3 of them and none of them may exceed 150 Pts. Yet, you may use named characters. 

I therefore don't have to fear a Plague Furnace even (although it does seem I would've had the means to destroy it). The list of restrictions just goes on and on, including reduced magical possibilities, shooting, units with too much Armour Save, flyers, artillery, ... Basically I think every single dimension of the game is comped.

Yet, I might want to say, in favour of the organiser (who only just takes a common comp system that is widely accepted here) and the comp-system, it does make you play a different army from what you might usually take, making the armies more individual, less of the same "ideal build" per army attending.

Yet, you might also say that the comp is already so heavy that you are so very limited in your choices that everyone gets to play the same army anyways, because... What can you do under all these restrictions?! However, it does make for interesting games while you battle. Simply because due to all these restrictions, a complete wipe-out within the first three turns is really difficult and you will not just be torn to shreds by shooting only or have that Dweller's Below cast on IF on every more important unit. It may still happen, but it just becomes way less likely.

Ridiculously enough, the same comp system has been expanded for 2000 points (and fitted accordingly), and that, in my opinion, is a completely broken system there ; -).

Personally I think even that the Empire becomes one of the more competitive armies under the given circumstances... We have very well suited units that just happen to fit into most of the restrictions, especially as our artillery has been nerfed (mortar and helstorm-wise) and our state troops have gotten a boost once they're buffed, and all that buffing is possible within the restrictions.

[Steve-O]

What kind of creature are you that you sport a baculum? 

I am a giant anthropomorphic hedgehog. Trufax.

Haha, I certainly didn't expect to read that this morning.  Thankyou, giant hedgehog-person thing.

[Daymz]

Here I am again, the tournament is over and I ranked in 5th out of 16, which is cool for me!

I did indeed face a Skaven player in the 2nd game, the blood and glory scenario. The full battle reports can be found here: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42460.0, while the anti-skaven-report is copied here for your convenience (to keep it on topic  ):

Second game: "Blood and Glory" vs. Skaven. Result: 13:7 (favour: Empire).

My halbs took the middle of the field, the outriders were positioned on the righthand flank with the demigryphs (terrain didn't allow them to be on the left). The hunters got in on the far right of his deployment zone.

He put two 35-er units of slaves up front, next to which came a 35-er unit of clan rats with a ratling gun and warlock lvl 2. He also had a warp lightning cannon and another 35-er unit of clan rats including his general and a poison mortar behind those three units. Three Jezzails faced my outriders. His scouts (don't know the name) and his skirmishing poison-wind-throwing-thingies (don't know the name either) stood in the middle and would mainly concern themselves with my hunters.

And Skaven... Wow. They are broken indeed. Even in this comp., it was all due to the scenario rules that I won. Were it battle line I would've been destroyed.

So basically, I tried to get into CC as soon as possible. He was shooting at me with all his stuff (note: Weapon teams are not warmachines. So his "only" warmachine was his warplightning cannon. Yeah. Sure.) and reduced my 38 man strong unit of halbs (35+3 heroes) to 28 within his first turn. After that, it would be 20. And that was thanks to one shot of his warplightning cannon, some skaven spell with a 3-inch-template S4 magic attack and his poison mortar. The rest took on other targets even!

Well, my outriders lost a man to the jezzails, in turn destroying one of them but not making 'em panic. One of his slave units then charged the outriders who broke the first round of combat. He then pursued into my demigryphs who really started dishing out hell amongst them, but then... His warplightning cannon fired a neat flank shot at S10 through them, so two died outright and one lost two wounds. That one surviving wound was taken by the slaves. Neat.

One slave unit charged my spearmen, the clanrats with the warlock charged the swordsmen. Both the detachments rolled like the gods, assisted with the warrior priest's buffs, and caused break tests among the enemy units. Steadfast ld9 clanrats didn't go anywhere, but the slaves against the spearmen actually broke and exploded. They in turn got charged by his other clan rat unit with the general and... an assassin. The spearmen broke, the rats pursued and caught up with them, now standing right out of sight for my halberdiers.

The halbs therefore charged the poison wind throwing thingies, just to get out of shooting, destroyed them and reformed, looking at the clan rat unit's back. Through some kind of lucky factor - I don't recall which it was - I got to finally charge that unit in the back, issue a challenge with my warrior priest which saved his life, and break the unit. A turn later, I charged them off the field, winning that game. As it was in turn 5 that I broke the enemy, it was considered a 13:7 victory.

[Ratarsed]

Congratulations on your good performance. Scenarios are a great balancer. They should be played more often.

It makes me smile when even after a win people complain about the enemy army being broken. Surely if you have beaten a broken army, your army must be even more broken

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Congrats, Daymz, good job there.

Broken doesn't mean unbeatable, Ratarsed. As he pointed out, luck played its part.

[csjarrat]

Congratulations on your good performance. Scenarios are a great balancer. They should be played more often.

It makes me smile when even after a win people complain about the enemy army being broken. Surely if you have beaten a broken army, your army must be even more broken

any army that needs 9 pages of FAQ is clearly broken!

[Ratarsed]

Congrats, Daymz, good job there.

Broken doesn't mean unbeatable, Ratarsed. As he pointed out, luck played its part.

What does it mean?

Lots of FAQs are more a sign of unclear rules than imbalance.

[commandant]

Skaven are a little uncosted really I think but they are not nearly as broken as people suggest.   Mind you I think that if the battles are bigger than their brokenness is less pronounced maybe.

And also people just like complaining

[Daymz]

Thanks! 

It makes me smile when even after a win people complain about the enemy army being broken. Surely if you have beaten a broken army, your army must be even more broken

Hehehe, I didn't notice the irony in my own statement at first. But actually, I did just mean that the basics of the Skaven army book seem... a bit off balance for me, and I encountered quite a lot of problems against that list that I only overcame due to the fact that I had to do nothing but "break his will" to win the scenario. Like I pointed out, had it been a battle line I would've been nigh obliterated.

Luck clearly was a factor with my detachments' combat rolls that were really good, when they both were charged simultaneously. On the other hand, ... Was it lucky or expectable that his warp lightning cannon took out my demigryphs almost entirely? While in CC? I mean, any roll on the artillery dice from a 6 on would've had the same effect on the guys. That, for instance, was quite problematic for me.

I can't say whether the load of FAQ the Skaven got shows how they are broken, but I definitely feel that the Skaven are an army that is too much to handle for an opponent too much of the time. I guess I'm just used to playing against 8th ed army books, which I feel to be very balanced so far (and I hope that trend continues!!!)

[csjarrat]

well for a start, a huge FAQ means the book was badly written, with many units requiring their own silly random tables. there are so many of them, even some of the skaven players at the club dont know what their stuff does.
they are undercosted, have a huge arsenal of no armour save weapons, have access to insane amount of cheap troops which are steadfast on LD10 with bsb re-rolls most of the time and then hurt you when you finally do break them.
they can shut down your shooting with the banner and then comprehensively outshoot most opponents. on top of this they can spam warpstone to the point of ridiculousness and nuke entire units with the 13th spell becuase it was designed for an edition where you could only throw slightly more dice than your casting level.
now you chuck 6 with relative impunity because of the cheapness of your characters.
they are very broken i'm afraid, they can outshoot, out magic, out fight and outgun us and really should have had a proper book with the IoB set.

[Obi]

Guys, they have a large FAQ because the book was written for 7th edition, but with 8th already in mind.