Topic: State Troops - Strength in Numbers

[Divineshadow]

As the title suggests, what numbers do you think are the most effective for a regiment of state troops (say halbediers) in a 2500pt army?

I've been toying with the idea of either 30 models 5 wide x 6 deep, or 48 models 6 wide x 8 deep.

Is one too small, and the other too large? Or any ideas with other effective combinations?

[stareso]

Well I'd say to look at the role you need them to fulfil. That sounds a little too vague and abstract maybe, but the way I see it is to either make them as hard to break as possible, which would ideally mean 5 wide and as deep as you can afford (say 6 or 7 deep?). Preferably with a general or captain in there with good protection for that 3-dice break test. In that case Swordsmen would be a good choice, but maybe spears also as they are cheaper now.

If you want your infantry to cause as much damage as possible you'll want to put them in horde formation with a priest to give them hatred, in this case Halberdiers would still be the optimal choice. I played a 1500pt tournament this past weekend and took one Horde of 40 Halberdiers, incl. Priest. In the first game they faced a horde of Dwarf Warriors, unsupported. Naturally they were destroyed, and broke after a single round of combat. So in this case I had to support them better, a unit 50 or 60 strong would have made little difference as the Dwarfs would have outfought them anyway, maybe then in two or three rounds of combat.

In my second game they were charged by a Hydra and 20 Witch Elves (boosted with an add. attack by a Cauldron) and obliterated again. Again I made the mistake (likely at list building level too) that I had them facing off against superior points/power unsupported. Maybe a bigger horde might have worked, as the Dark Elves are all about hitting and breaking, what with Hatred and the Hydra's breath weapon. But maybe not..

In the two other games the unit was stomped to oblivion by Foot of Gork or dragged to their doom by Dweller's Below.

All this long windedness leads me to believe that, yes, a horde of Halberds with Priest can put out a lot of hurt but it definitely needs proper support (duuhhh), either with good missile/war machine fire to shut down enemy heavy hitters and/or whittle down enemy blocks or by having more combat blocks ready to charge in (or be charged) simultaneously. The larger a horde, the more points you miss out on that might buy you a cannon, helstorm, a few flaggellants, greatswords or whatever. However, too small and your horde will be rendered ineffective easily. I'd say 40 is smallish for Halberds, I'll take 50 next time or just take 30 or 35 Swordsmen in a bus formation instead and have the killing done by knights/flags/greatswords/artillery.

[abdulaapocolyps]

I was thinking of 60 man spears and 2 30 man helbard detachments.that's your middle of the board,and u only need a priest and a single captain...?economy wise this seems pretty good to me.my only concern is how many eggs are in the spear basket.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Units of 40-50 Halberdiers in horde formation have been quite common for the last two years or so, and for good reasons. You need core, you need to kill stuff, and this unit does both. Of course it needs support, and yes, other State troops might be better at just tarpitting stuff but plans have a tendency to go awry for all kinds of reasons, so there's nothing inherently wrong in reforming Halberdiers into a bus should you find that your opponent has deployed something opposite that will smash them no matter their formation.

Some players have good success with more smaller units of around 35 men, so that is another possibility but it takes a lot more thinking and experience IMO, and you have to remember that even a combined charge of two 5-wide units will throw out less attacks than one horde. It has the charm that it's easier to get flanks though, and both approaches can be combined by the use of detachments as abdulaapocalyps has pointed out.

[Borgio the Besieger]

At my FLGS we have a player who with the 7th edition Empire book regularly won games running 20 to 25 man units of swordsmen. He simply had more units on the board than his opponent and had the flexibility of flanking and multi charging. He preffered this flexibility over the large unit grind type combat that is typically favored here in the forums. I'm not sying this strategy doesn't work, but from the comments above sometimes it certainly does not and then you have a big part of your army destroyed or run off the board.

The key to his strategy was to never face an enemy unit unsupported and to beat them with combat resolution over simply putting a large unit of chaff in front of the enemy to soak casualties. He also went at the enemy in waves deploying two or sometimes three units deep to protect key elements like his general and War Altar. He has a knack for finding the toughest units in his opponents army and hitting it with enough magic, ranged fire power and combat to break it.

I agree it takes much more thought and strategy to take the enemy apart piece meal like this.

Bottom line, if you can flank your enemy with enough troops you negate rank bonus and score extra combat resolution. With the right spells you can minimize the damage potential of elite units and horde units can be broken through magic and shooting. Weak horde units are also succeptible to being held up by much smaller better units making them easy to hold and flank. If you can score enough combat resolution it doesn't matter at all how many troops are in the unit. The bigger the unit the more troops and points run away.

Can you use this strategy with the 8th edition empire book? I don't know. Most state troops are slightly more expensive meaning less bodies on the table. Knights however are slightly cheaper and can make great flankers, you will need two ranks to disrupt which is still expensive but 1+ armor helps keep them around and they hit much harder on a flank. We also have detachments benefittiing from parent unit command bonuses which can save in the points department, but I think the detachments need to be at least 15 man units meaning larger parent units. Try both strategies as I intend to do and lets us know what is working.

[zifnab0]

Personally, I don't like fielding more than 40 or so state troops.  Anything 50+ gets too unwieldy.

Plus, in my local meta, most opponents bring 6-8 units to the table, which means if you've only got 4-5 units, he is dictating the terms of the engagement.

[Borgio the Besieger]

I've noticed this in my meta as well. Unless your troops can withstand being double charged taking one or two large units seems very counter intuitive. I would think taking just 30 to 40 state troops with detachments may be the way to go.  I play a high elf player all the time who never fields larger than 30 man blocks. In a 2400 point list he usually has one or two units of 30 spears, 20 and 25 man units of greatswords, white lions and pheonix guard, two to three chariots and two great eagles. He doesn't lose much.

Hardly anyone in my meta fields hordes units exept the skaven players and only in the the plague monk / warmachine / engineer deathstar unit. We have one night goblin player who uses Hordes and busses with large number of fanatics, but that is pretty much mandatory in a goblin list.

I am going to go with 3 main units of 6x6 spears or two main units of spears and one unit of greatswords and see how well it works out. Maybe one or two detachment units 15 to 18 swordsmen, supported with a Hurricanum, characters, cannon, hellblaster and units of knights. I think the knights are almost mandatory in an empire list now that shooting has become pricier and in some cases less effective.

[Divineshadow]

Wow, so many different opinions. 

Considering how easy it is to reform now with a musician, it seems to me like 40 is the magical number imho.

Just enough to create a horde, but can also reform into a chunky regiment deep enough to stay steadfast for long, so you get quite a bit of strategic flexibility there.

Seems this edition favors larger numbers so I'm not so sure if numerous smallish regiments will work anymore.

I guess its testing time... and time to glue some halbediers 

[cisse]

  I play a high elf player all the time who never fields larger than 30 man blocks. In a 2400 point list he usually has one or two units of 30 spears, 20 and 25 man units of greatswords, white lions and pheonix guard, two to three chariots and two great eagles. He doesn't lose much.

Hardly anyone in my meta fields hordes units exept the skaven players and only in the the plague monk / warmachine / engineer deathstar unit. We have one night goblin player who uses Hordes and busses with large number of fanatics, but that is pretty much mandatory in a goblin list.

Well for a HE army that is already rathe rbig, an it is only to be expected that a skaven/goblin army has some big units in it. So that's not only your meta, I think. On the other hand if chaos players don't use marauder hordes, if beastmen players don't use gor hodes, etc, then ok your meta doesn't like hordes.

The problem is that Empire state troops are far inferior to the HE troops mentioned above, and far more costly than the goblins or skaven. So you can go with large units or with a MSU army, your choice. Just remember you won't outfight most armies and will be outnumbered by the others

[mr chumley warner]

I'm thinking.

Spearmen haven't changed at all, they are now the same price as they were b4 and same stats.

Albeit they were a poor choice b4.

Now looking at swordsmen , they are just pony , 2 pts more and lower Initiative.

I'm gonna try out some spears

[Borgio the Besieger]

  I play a high elf player all the time who never fields larger than 30 man blocks. In a 2400 point list he usually has one or two units of 30 spears, 20 and 25 man units of greatswords, white lions and pheonix guard, two to three chariots and two great eagles. He doesn't lose much.

Hardly anyone in my meta fields hordes units exept the skaven players and only in the the plague monk / warmachine / engineer deathstar unit. We have one night goblin player who uses Hordes and busses with large number of fanatics, but that is pretty much mandatory in a goblin list.

Well for a HE army that is already rathe rbig, an it is only to be expected that a skaven/goblin army has some big units in it. So that's not only your meta, I think. On the other hand if chaos players don't use marauder hordes, if beastmen players don't use gor hodes, etc, then ok your meta doesn't like hordes.

The problem is that Empire state troops are far inferior to the HE troops mentioned above, and far more costly than the goblins or skaven. So you can go with large units or with a MSU army, your choice. Just remember you won't outfight most armies and will be outnumbered by the others

The Chaos players actually use" MSU" units as well. One has a double hell cannon list with small units of 15 marauders with only minimal command but good buffs. It's damn hard to beat. The one Beastman player we have doesn't use them either. He fields many , many units instead and a big unit of minotaurs with a couple of giants (whatever the big beatman beasty is called) thrown in the mix to do the heavy lifting.

Hordes aren't as necessary as they are played up to be just another option for fielding units. Empire as usual and perhaps by design seems to fall dead center on the scale as far as survivability and damage potential goes. Meaning they are average. I think this means they can be played effectively either way. 

So if I don't outnumber them and can't out fight them how do I win? Artillery? Magic? Religion? I don't think plopping down two giant units of Halberdiers is neccesarily the key to victory here.

[Divineshadow]

I think the bottom line is your core infantry play a vital role to hold your center line, but it is your elite units that are there to give the killing blow. Hammer and anvil anyone?

[mr chumley warner]

yep,

what do u think about spears as parent units ,

and using detachments of halberds to support?

then usual buffs , luminark, WP, Captain, BSB  etc

[Newt]

You could be cheezy and just have a giant horde of halberds (70 or 80) in a horde.  Supported by more halberds or whatever you have.  Give that unit the CoC on a tank of a character.  Then you can hope you can actually grind your enemy down.  That way you ahve 30 or 40 stubborn swordsmen/handgunners/spears/halberds guarding your flank.

Will this work? Probably not, but it would be interesting.  Just make sure you take mask of EEE or a fear causing item so your dont get terrored off the table =)