Topic: Imperial Menagerie - 2500 points

[rothgar13]

Hey all,

I thought I'd share a list I've been formulating since I bought the new book. Without further ado...

Imperial Menagerie - 2500 points

Core - 745 points
2 x 10 Crossbowmen [Wizard Lord goes in one of these]
40 Halberdiers, Musician, Standard-Bearer
11 Inner Circle Knights, Full Command [BSB goes here]

Special - 991 points
6 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer, Gleaming Pennant
6 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame
2 x Great Cannon

Heroes - 149 points
Captain, BSB, Barding, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone, Full Plate Armor, Ironcurse Icon, Lance, Warhorse

Lords - 615 points
Arch Lector, Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon, Van Horstmann's Speculum, War Altar of Sigmar
Wizard Lord, L4 Wizard, Dispel Scroll, Talisman of Preservation [Lore of Light]

Grand Total: 2500 points

As you can see by the smaller unit sizes, this is an MMU-style list. That means I'm going to be looking to dictate the terms of the engagement, and given that my 3 best fighting units are at M7, I think I have a good chance of doing that.

The general strategy is that the beefy units of Knights can take smaller targets on their own and combine to take down Hordes, the big unit of Halberdiers provides ranks and a bit of extra punch, the Crossbowmen clean out enemy chaff, and the cannon takes down any monsters. The War Altar is there to provide global support to my units in the form of bubbled Hatred and prayers, provide emergency Impact Hits (if need be), maybe throw out a casting of Banishment or two, and park itself in front of anything I know it can hold up until the cavalry arrives (literally). Lore of Shadows allows my Wizard to operate at a safe distance from the fray (a lot of spells have some version that can be cast at 36" or better range), and it's not like the spells it offers are bad (the Ward save is in case an opponent tries to snipe him off the board, as armies like Ogres and the Undead are wont to do).

I know some people will say, "Why 6 Demigryph Knights?", and the reason why is because it gives them the bodies they need to be successful. I ran the math on these guys, and they can take a unit of 20 Frenzied Halberd Chaos Warriors in a 1-on-1 in 2 rounds, with no sort of magical backup, while costing exactly the same amount of points. That's a winning combination in my book.

So... what do you think?

[Forgotten Beast]

I think this is a fantastic list. 

I've finally been able to get quite a few games in with the new book, and this list seems to incorporate many of the lessons I've learned:  Demigryphs are great.  Demigryphs with hatred are amazing.  Halberds can be a liability in a combined charge with demis, as they give CR, and so do better in buses to give the static cr you're talking about.  For myself, I've been putting warrior priests in my demi squads instead of the altar, but perhaps your road is the better one.  Instead I have my AL in my IC knights with the standard of discipline.  I wonder if LD9 is good enough.  What has your experience been?

Lore of shadow is solid and can take out lots of tricky things like steamtanks.  But don't you find it to have high casting values?  I think my list is structurally similar to yours (2 hatred demis, IC knight bus), and has had some great success with light.  IC knights are strong.  Timewarped IC knights are very strong

[rothgar13]

Thanks for the kind words. I haven't gotten to play with this list at this moment (got the book not that long ago, and I've never collected Empire), but hopefully I'll work on getting a collection and trying this one out. Lore choice is definitely up for debate, but my main reasoning behind Shadows was the range some of the spells can have (36"-48"), and how spells like Mindrazor and The Withering help Knights grind away (not to mention what the latter does for the Crossbows). I can definitely see the merits behind Light, though.

I'll take your advice and pack the unit of Halberds into a 40-man block, as I also am rather iffy as to how good they would be at fighting in a unit that small.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Given that your WL is in the unit of Crossbowmen, I would give that unit a musician. If for some reason they turn to flight, you really want them to rally.

[rothgar13]

Truthfully, the Wizard's location is a pretty fluid situation in this army. I don't expect the Crossbowmen units to do much in the way of forward advancement, so I'll get at least a turn's warning for an opponent coming to try and threaten the Wizard. If they do, I'm not opposed to having him bail out of the unit, and either join another unit or stand around reaping the benefits of the 4+ LoS! within 3".

[mR_RoTTenTReaTs]

I like the original list with 2x 20 state troops, with the idea of providing ranks in a combo charge.   However, Forgotten Beast is right about them giving up just as much CR as they give. My suggestion would be drop 2x IC knights to switch the 40 Halberds for 2x 20 Swordsmen.  Swordsman would provide the extra CR, but the WS4 and 5+/6++ should help against giving up too much CR in return.
Im a big fan of Shadow, but given the list, I think Light would be the lore to playtest first.

[rothgar13]

The problem I have with that idea is that S3 doesn't hurt anybody - they won't give up CR, but they won't generate it, either. Halberds give me cheap bodies that can kill, which are both good things to have in what is an MMU army apart from them.

[Forgotten Beast]

Yeah I didn't mean to say anything one way or another between 1 unit of 40 or two units of 20.  Seems pros and cons either way.  The nice thing about the 40 is it has a chance of actually doing something on its own, while the 20s are for chaff detail and getting clipping-combined charges with demis.

I'm sure everyone understands what I'm getting at, but I'll just tell some stories for the sake of it.  Once I was playing my brothers bretts and he charged my halberd bus.  Killed a bunch but I was steadfast, stuck around.  Then I hit my demis on his big long lance flank.  Even with charging, all the demi fighting power, and him only being s3, he killed enough halbs to win combat, send the demis running, and run them down.  If the situation had been reversed - if the halbs had been on the flanks but the demis in the front taking the damage, I would have won the combat easily.  I used to think of halbs as anvils and demis as hammers, but in a way it is the opposite.  Better to have halbs on the flank and 20 man squads may do that better. 

[rothgar13]

That story is actually very mathematically unlikely - a Knights of the Realm unit post-charge averages 1.94 Halberd kills or so per round, and a Grail Knight unit averages 4.00. You're telling me that your superior ranks (likely +1 or +2 CR), a flank-charge (+2 CR), and any kills you get from the parties involved (0.93 from the Halberds, 2.22 from the Demigryph Knights) can't beat that?

[Forgotten Beast]

Yeah that does seem fishy. I think there was 1 to 3 characters in the front though, all kitted out and what-have you.  Also don't forget the horses 

[RockabillGR]

Also don't forget the horses 

True brettonian horses are quite feral and usually kill more than their riders.

I like the 2x6 griffins, they are quite tough to be taken down, and quite dangerous if they are not taken down. Not really sure about the IC though. What exactly are they gonna do with the bsb in the unit? do you plan to throw them into a flank or are they just a bunker?

[rothgar13]

Flank-mashers and beating up on weaker units, mostly. The BSB is reasonably sturdy (1+ re-rollable save), so I'm not too scared of throwing him into combat.

@The Forgotten Beast: That certainly does help his odds, yes. Still, I think the flank-charge should have helped you hold on, unless he got lucky with his saves, or you got unlucky with your attacks.