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Author Topic: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?  (Read 1238 times)

Offline Raulmichile

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MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« on: May 28, 2012, 06:13:37 PM »

I've reading in some threads that some of you prefer MSU over Hordes in your army configuration.  For what I have seen MSU armies are doing fairly well but I don't know if it is because of the meta of the players' gaming area or not.   

I'm certain that 8th Ed. is the edition of hordes and dice and for many other races it surely is, but is this so true for the Empire?  Are we in the need to put 50+ halberds/spearmen loaded with full detachments of even more halberds/spearmen in order to be competitive, or is there another, more "minimal" approach?

What do you think?
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2012, 06:18:02 PM »
Depends on the armies and the generals. I think beating Horde Skaven with MSU Elves will be hard.

Hmmm thinking about it killing Skaven with High Elves...= hard.
Dwarves....
yeah, they really are comically small. Still, all that matters is that you're happy doing them.

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Online Noght

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2012, 06:30:19 PM »
Depends on the Generals and Armies.  Some Hordes are just better than others (WoC, DE, skaven) and Empire Hordes not so much. 
I'm a big  Empire MSU guy because I like lots of units and combo charging, though I'm not sure I'll be able to replicate it with this book.

Old book Empire MSU vs 2 Halb Horde, battle 4:

 http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42582.0

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p.s. When your Hordes aren't great then you lose vs other Hordes so you HAVE to buff them like all Empire troops.  (Except DGryphs, I think they can handle most stuff fine).
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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2012, 08:53:26 PM »
For MSU to work, you have to win combats and not depend on ranks and steadfast to keep you in the fight.

This can only be achieved with an Empire army by buffing your wimpy humans, multiple charges into the same combat, or both.

Since magic can sometimes be fickle, you will need to rely on multiple charges-  either with a "hammer & anvil" mode or a "horde 'em" mode of getting multiple units in the flank and rear of combats.  This requires tactical acumen. 

Personally I think Empire in 8th edition lends itself to taking the safety blanket of steadfast and bigger units.     
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Offline Von Ulrich

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 10:12:44 PM »
A couple of the Wizard wagons, two units of demis and some knights can be competative.

Offline Ratarsed

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 10:31:03 PM »
Depends on the Generals and armies.

I'm not a fan of hordes myself but that may just be down to my playstyle.

Online rothgar13

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 04:00:00 AM »
MSU relies on two things, and that is units that can perform their functions with little to no support, and a general who's good at risk management and gauging what is an acceptable loss. Rarely will you see them table anyone - more often than not, this army is about trying to exploit an advantageous matchup for a minor win.

Hordes rely on two things as well - the first is cheap complementary units to keep them pointed in the right direction, the second are tools to help them mitigate a bad situation (like getting charged on multiple fronts and losing the ensuing combat).

There are armies that can do one style well, but not the other. Empire can do either reasonably well, so it depends on whether your style is to pinpoint a weakness and exploit it, or to impose yourself upon your opponent.

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 07:14:33 AM »
Surely both MSU and hordes need tools to rectify a bad situation, and both can fail at that?

Both approaches are viable for most armies. With Empire, you can even combine them taking 2 hordes + 4 detachments.

8th make shordes very strong and feasible. They are however not very subtle. They're very useful once they get stuck in and you can make use of brute force but that doesn't mean it's all about hordes. Being able to flank a horde can be immensely valuable, and that's just not going to happen if both sides field 2-3 bricks only.
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Offline Joelatron

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 09:28:46 AM »
As more and more 8th army books come out the more and more obvious the MSU builds are relics of the 7th ed era books.

Why? because most MSU builds rely on army book items to do things that a unit would normally do + in the older books there is little inter unit synergy to rely on so units can act independantly to create multiple threats.

for example: 7th Empire had the sword of fate, mace of helstrum etc to deal with monsters. There were no inter unit buffs to rely on. Flagellants were ld10 so could act as independant hammers.
8th Empire-no more sword of fate/mace of helstrum no longer a cannon on a stick. infantry is more expensive due to the synergy created from certain things working together (ie detachment rules, maage wagons, AOE waralter etc). Flagellants now being ld7 are a lot more reliant on inspiring presence = cramps battle line which is not good for MSU. Demigriffs can be considered "MSU" compatible, but I think the reflect a general 8th move towards monsterous beasts/infantry/calv hammer units not a revival of MSU armies.

The "good" MSU armies are:
1)Darkelves (one of the few 7th books with interunit synergy due to the cauldron) because they can mindrazor up 7 Wichelves with cauldron granting stubborn and an extra attack for 28 s8 i6 poison attacks. Or they can run a very cheap monster at you while having 30 shades rip you to shreds. Throw in cheap, t5 chariots for distraction. Their characters are very important due to the items they can carry (stubborn pendant, life taker etc). On top of that their units are pointed cheaper than most over books when compared to their competitiveness.

2) Lizards. Ethereal slann, super sauruses (army book items key here), and lots and lots of skinks/terradons/cameleons/salamanders and you have an 90+ shot poison army. Clever use of the charge rules means and unit placement that you have a game where your opponent fails to make a single successful charge (bar random movement stuff) while you destroy units through volume of fire and finishing charges.

What these 2 armies offer is super cheap flying/fast chaff, heavy hitters, overwhelming magic, very strong scouting units, cheap effective units, strong leadership/stubborn stuff and plenty of BS based shooting. vs Hordes they will rip them a new one if the user knows how to exploit the charge rules (re: fleeing and the rules around redirection) they are next to impossible to get points out of. The old empire had most of this, the new empire doesnt to the same extent due to the key units crowding out the special selection.

I have yet to see a successful 8th book be done MSU due to key units moving to the special slot (that works with the BRB scenerios not just battleline). Tombkings come close, but are very reliant on keeping 1 character alive, so it can all unravell very, very quickly! Ogres dont count because there isnt many of them to begin with, so everything is "MSU" (less models in the army than the average skaven slave unit).

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 10:13:23 AM »
That is not at all obvious, Joelatron, and certainly not for the reasons you mention. MSU can be done with units able to act independenty but it can be done with a synergistic CA force. This is no criterion for whether a book is able to field MSU.

It's odd that you would call independants more capable of MSU and back that up with an example of a very synergistic buffing force. Cauldron + Mind Razor + Corsairs or any other combination are a good example of the sum being more than its parts. It tells us very little about the average size of units in an army, their number or how it usually fares, and I can do the same - conceptually, not in the details - with the Empire book.

I don't see how the SoF or Mace made the Empire MSU. People were fielding hordes ever since 8th without these items. Magic items are just details with little bearing on the concept if two armies can put the same concept into practice. It's true, mage buggies make infantry more expensive, they enhance it, they need to work together and they provide better synergy. Again, that says nothing about the viability of MSU. A mage wagon is quite small. More expensive infantry could be fielded in smaller units.

I really don't see why the new Empire should not be easily able to make both hordes or MSU or anything inbetween. I do think that most players will tend to the third choice with a couple of blocks and detachments + stuff. However, it's entirely possible to use for example 2*5 Reiksguard, 5 or 2*5 Outriders, some WM, knights, 3 or 2*3 DG, archers/huntsmen, some chariots and a couple of 30-strong infantry with 15 -strong detachments. You CAN take the CoC somewhere, you don't have to. You CAN take all kinds of magic items, you don't have to. Magic items do not a MSU force make, and synergy has nothing to do with it either. Special slots have nothing to do with it either because it's completely possible to take many small units from Lords, heroes, core and rare...

Quote
I have yet to see a successful 8th book be done MSU due to key units moving to the special slot (that works with the BRB scenerios not just battleline). Tombkings come close, but are very reliant on keeping 1 character alive, so it can all unravell very, very quickly! Ogres dont count because there isnt many of them to begin with, so everything is "MSU" (less models in the army than the average skaven slave unit).

Didn't TK have to keep their general alive in 7th edition/with their old AB as well? I know that Skaven do and VC better did with their old book, and both were usually fielding hordes, so that disclaimer isn't particular to MSU either.

Lastly, I don't see why Ogres do not count. They cannot be considered good MSU because they field small units? Uh...I think you need to explain that a bit more in-depth. Perhaps you meant to say that armies that are inherently good at playing MSU should not be considered...?
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Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 10:55:08 AM »
I think that VC could do good "MSU" since my mate was able to field like 6 blocks of infantry, about 30 strong against my three hordesized units. 30 Greatswords, 40 halberdiers and 50 spearmens.

Now, I was at a disadvantage with the meeting engagement scenario, since I got to start with a third of the army in reserve and he could deploy everything save a corpsecart.

My halberdier horde had to go into combat with the BSB, but had been meant to hold my general, BSB staying somewhat behind with my spears. They did smack down a skeleton regiment that had been stymized by my helblaster and then held their ground against the opposing Graveguard with BSB. My BSB was instrumental in keeping them fighting, with re-rolls and "Hold the line!" but as he finally succumed to the blade of the Wight king the halberdiers crumbled. So yes, it hits like a brick, but you cannot relly on only you getting the buffs of, and not your enemy, especially not when he is fielding a lv4 vampire and two lv2 necromancers.

My 30 greatswords never got to deploy for horde but went in fighting 6x5 with their two 10-man swordsmen detachments and put up a great show! Stubborn+Captain+Standard of discipline ment they held their flank and died to a man, but they held the entire battle and made my mate commit the bulk of his army to take them down. Had not a stroke of unluck hit me on the other flank, I might infact have been able to turn the tide and win, but alas, the dice was against me.
However, what gave a fighting chance to win was not my hordes but my stubborn greatswords and my knights with a priest with Crown of Command. They had to take a flank charge from Black knights having failed a charge the turn before, but they glued the Black knights to the spot!

So Stubborn & rerolls, plus the firepower of my lone helblaster was more important than anything else, hordes I could have done without.
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Online Noght

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 12:03:41 PM »


for example: 7th Empire had the sword of fate, mace of helstrum etc to deal with monsters. There were no inter unit buffs to rely on. Flagellants were ld10 so could act as independant hammers.
8th Empire-no more sword of fate/mace of helstrum no longer a cannon on a stick. infantry is more expensive due to the synergy created from certain things working together (ie detachment rules, maage wagons, AOE waralter etc). Flagellants now being ld7 are a lot more reliant on inspiring presence = cramps battle line which is not good for MSU. Demigriffs can be considered "MSU" compatible, but I think the reflect a general 8th move towards monsterous beasts/infantry/calv hammer units not a revival of MSU armies.


This.  The leadership change and new Martyr rules for Flagellants make New Empire Book MSU more difficult now (probably not impossible but certainly not as killy, 6 Reiksguard = 14 "old" flagellants w/prophet).

Still kind of annoyed by the whole "cost increase" for infantry (core especially) due to potential buff nonsense but it is what it is.

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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 12:12:32 PM »
It could be argued that the leadership drop makes MSU more necessary. You will want to have another small unit to sheperd the Flaggies. Assuming there is anyone who still uses them of course.

If you can win a battle and overrun the opposing unit, I'm pretty sure it's a lot more killy than hurling 14 Flagellants into something. And with detachments, stubborn Reiksguard and a lot of other choices it is possible to a) pick fights, b) win them, and c) have more ranks. Not always, and it's not meant to take away anything from the power of love hordes of course.

VC can do pretty good MSU. It's important to remember that not only infantry units make MSU. In
general, that could entail light cavalry, knights, chariots, monsters, MI, MC, flyers...or perhaps a couple of Spirit hosts and Hewxwraiths backed by Vargheists and small standard-bearing units of Skellies.

Mathi, I don't quite understand what you mean with "30 hordesized Greatswords fielded in 6x5". That unit is neither a horde in terms of formation nor unit size (even though it costs the same or more than your core units).

Why were you at a disadvantage? It sounds as if your Halberdiers were able to fight his regiments piecemeal.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 12:44:33 PM by Lord Solar Plexus »
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Offline commandant

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 12:44:19 PM »
Do 9 Orges count as a small unit.

Berts should be quite go at it though :)

Offline wardancer

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2012, 12:23:05 AM »
I am a big fan of MSU tactics and will be definitely playing Empire MSU soon. It is still absolutely doable. As somebody said, you exploit weaknesses, sacrifice some units and more often that not get a small victory, sometimes decisive one. Defeats also tend to be less spectacular.
At the moment having a lot of fun with demon msu- sure, it is difficult to play but I have good results with it (mostly minor wins).

Offline Ratarsed

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2012, 06:23:29 AM »
There is a great deal of satisfaction to be had from defeating an enemy horde with a smaller force. It requires very careful deployment and thinking on the go but certainly doable. Horde v horde often ends up as best horde wins. MSU vs MSU often ends up with luckiest or most skilled player wins.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 06:44:35 AM »
Sorry for being unclear, Solar. I consider 30 greatswords hordesized because the can deploy 10 wide and have 3 ranks to attack with. However, due to terrain I had them maintain their initial 6x5 formation and there was never time to reform. We played Meeting engagement and I had to start with many units in reserve.

The trouble for the halberdiers was they stuck on the rock that was his BSB lead Grave guard with Banner of the Barrows. I managed to get Melkoths Myasma on them for one round and it surely helped getting at the Wights but when my BSB fell the halberdiers broke. Due to having lots in reserve, including my General, I had to put the BSB with the halberdiers instead of my Arch lector.
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Offline Shadowwolf

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 09:27:24 AM »
Hmm, you guys got me wondering...

If I had a smallish unit of greatswords, say 10, with two detachments, each going conga. Supposing I can march them up to an uberkill unit one at the time and keep them within 3" of their stubborn parent, how long could they hold up a classic deathstar? Is it a viable tactic or just beardy methods that will get you whacked with a 400+ page rulebook?

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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 10:00:43 AM »
No prob, Mathi, thanks for clearing that up. I just think that we all need to read from the same page when discussing these things because to some 30 is small and for others it's a horde, and size and formation being two different things doesn't help either. In fact, "Horde" isn't the opposite of "MSU". One could conceivably field an MSU horde force...but nobody has really defined what "many" and "small" means either. We all probably recognize an MSU list when we see it but the boundaries are somewhat vague.

Conga's ARE legal AND clearly frowned upon. I'd personally use them as an ultima ratio only and I've never made a list with the intent to use one. Having said that, something w/ S5 and 2 attacks will kill a detachment of 5 even in conga. White Lions...perhaps. Swordmasters, Ogres or CW, quite probably. You also need to make sure that the very first model is within 3" or you're breaking the connection.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 11:00:57 AM »
Hordes are more consistant but can be devastated by spells such as Dwellers.  MSU spreads out the risk over many units.  In a head to head though, MSU will struggle significantly to beat a horde deployed in horde formation (as in with the extra row of attackers).  The same buffs you can throw on small units can be cast on hordes.  A cautious player will cover his flanks, making combined charges a frontal affair and playing into the horde's strengths.
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Online Noght

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 11:23:43 AM »
His flank covered:


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Peg Capt into WAltar and sacrifice Flags/GS/Outriders to pull other Horde out


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Now his middle Horde is gone along with BSB and Wiz Lord


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Sometimes it just works.

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 11:31:03 AM »
I guess I need a little more explaination on what happened.  Did you charge him to pull the unit out of line or did he charge you?  How did you then kill that unit since there isn't really room to get into that flank with the outriders.  To be honest, I cannot even tell what the enemy army is.  Is it Empire?
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Offline Ratarsed

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2012, 12:29:54 PM »
Hordes are more consistant but can be devastated by spells such as Dwellers.  MSU spreads out the risk over many units.  In a head to head though, MSU will struggle significantly to beat a horde deployed in horde formation (as in with the extra row of attackers).  The same buffs you can throw on small units can be cast on hordes.  A cautious player will cover his flanks, making combined charges a frontal affair and playing into the horde's strengths.
It makes for interesting match ups. An army with a horde or two typically has fewer points to spend on auxiliary units to protect those flanks. The skill with the MSU vs Horde match is to sacrifice as little as possible to the horde whilst bringing your superior strength to bear against the horde army's support units. The horde army meanwhile will be hoping for points denial with their hordes and hoping they gain enough advantage from them to compensate for their losses elsewhere.

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 12:34:34 PM »
I guess I need a little more explaination on what happened.  Did you charge him to pull the unit out of line or did he charge you?  How did you then kill that unit since there isn't really room to get into that flank with the outriders.  To be honest, I cannot even tell what the enemy army is.  Is it Empire?

Empire Halb Hordes x2.
Pinned War Altar w/ Peg Capt (Sword of Fate on AL).
Charged his Eastern Horde w/Flags, GS and set up Outriders so he couldn't reform (spin).
Combo charged his Horde that moved up w/Halb Bus, War Altar and Knights/BSB (flank), killed his BSB.  He blew the steadfast 7.

Noght
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Offline PrinceofPleasure

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Re: MSU vs Horde. Who wins?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 01:27:58 PM »
I guess I need a little more explaination on what happened.  Did you charge him to pull the unit out of line or did he charge you?  How did you then kill that unit since there isn't really room to get into that flank with the outriders.  To be honest, I cannot even tell what the enemy army is.  Is it Empire?

Empire Halb Hordes x2.
Pinned War Altar w/ Peg Capt (Sword of Fate on AL).
Charged his Eastern Horde w/Flags, GS and set up Outriders so he couldn't reform (spin).
Combo charged his Horde that moved up w/Halb Bus, War Altar and Knights/BSB (flank), killed his BSB.  He blew the steadfast 7.

Noght

That army and battle is a clear example of why every army needs to be competent in every phase. Without the ability to do any real consistent damage outside of combat. He was forced to make a choice. Go for the charge and hope for a decent overrun, or hold the battle line. He really did neither really.

MSU is also why light shooting still has a place. Killing a knight here, 3 or 4 halberd there on 5-6 man knights or 15-20 man halberds a turn is important. Losing 2 knights from 6 makes the unit extremely unreliable. Losing 4-6 from 20 leaving you dangerously close to being unable to disrupt. Important differences to an MSU build from a Horde build.

At that point with both his flanks engaged he would have been better off holding his line, and using the outriders as a forlorn hope type unit to keep your War alter from joining in. His failure to give up this 105 compounded his first choice, costing him the game. Time was on his side, and he fell victim mentally to your blitzkrieg. This points out the obvious of course, judging your opponent. Which is important regardless of the type of army you play. Make him uncomfortable. I'm sure he was agitated by the suddenness of the multiply combats, and disruption of his plan, leading to a poor decision.