Topic: General dilemma in Empire GT list

[Count Wolfenstein]

Hey all,

I'm preparing for a tournament in a few months (the North Star GT in Minnesota, US) and I've run into a dilemma I'd like some help with.

I've used an Arch Lector with AoMI and a basic magic weapon as my general for quite some time. He boosts the core of my empire army quite well with spells and ld. Recently I've had a LOT of success with a templar grand master with a runefang and the other trickter's shard, though. I've been sticking in a 3man unit of DGK and use the unit as a character/threatening unit hunter. He's taken out fully kitted out chaos lords by himself just for one example. It's great having a crazy hard-hitting unit as an empire player. Obviously though he doesn't give leadership to the rest of my army which is a problem.

So who do I go for in my list? I've had success with both characters. What do you see as more advantageous? My list is as follows...

General in contention
Wizard Lord
BSB Captain
Warrior priest for core(if no AL)
Warrior priest for DGK (if no grand master)
Engineer

50 Halbs, 25 swords detach, 10 handgunner detach
Cannon
3 Demigryphs, FC
Cannon
5 pistoliers
Helblaster VG
Steam tank

Thanks guys!

[Hetelic]

For a GT, i would probably suggest going with the general that supports the most troops.

As an empire army, it's all about the troops. Its nice to have a killy character, but thats not what the army is about; You wont win many games if 3/4 of your army is running because your general is out of leadership range smashing face.

However, it is personal preference, and up to you how you wish to play

[Clymer]

I'd go with the Arch Lector. At a GT you're bound to run into the unkillable Dark Elf hero on a pegasus. All he has to do is plant himself in front of your DGK and super killy lord, throw down a challenge and viola: a quarter of your army is sitting out the game. It's such an effective tactic that I never put characters or even champions into cavalry units with just one rank if I suspect I'll be facing DE.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Which leads to the usual question of, "what is the strength of a Runefang attack?"

[Clymer]

Nicely done, sir.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Count Wolfenstein, both are obviously quite viable and both will be far away from a hefty chunk of the army for Ld purposes. I'd probably rather go with the AL simply because that's hatred and prayers for two units and can still have a ward. People will be gunning for Generals.

However, a Runemaster is a very good way to autokill Pendant Lords by bypassing their reverse ward, as a Runefang has no strength, and offers you a tool to gun for characters, so it's such a close call that you could as well toss a die. Or simply chose the model you like better.

[Kimiko]

Count Wolfenstein, both are obviously quite viable and both will be far away from a hefty chunk of the army for Ld purposes. I'd probably rather go with the AL simply because that's hatred and prayers for two units and can still have a ward. People will be gunning for Generals.

However, a Runemaster is a very good way to autokill Pendant Lords by bypassing their reverse ward, as a Runefang has no strength, and offers you a tool to gun for characters, so it's such a close call that you could as well toss a die. Or simply chose the model you like better.

I think as Runefang is a hand weapon, it strikes with S equal to the user... It´s my interpretation...

[csjarrat]

I think as Runefang is a hand weapon, it strikes with S equal to the user... It´s my interpretation...

could you clarify this? a hand weapon is basic weaponry all models are assumed to have and confers no special bonsues. attacks are made at the user's strength.
the runefang is a magic weapon and has properties different to those of a hand weapon, they are clearly different?

[PrinceofPleasure]

I think as Runefang is a hand weapon, it strikes with S equal to the user... It´s my interpretation...

could you clarify this? a hand weapon is basic weaponry all models are assumed to have and confers no special bonsues. attacks are made at the user's strength.
the runefang is a magic weapon and has properties different to those of a hand weapon, they are clearly different?

The strength of the attack is still S4, the weapon allows the attack to wound without rolling, and ignore armour saves. Just because the value isn't used for a 'to wound' roll doesn't mean it doesn't have a strength.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I agree with PoPs. It does seem implied by the HE Sword of Hoeth: "All hits wound automatically. Armour save are modifed with the strength of the bearer". Equally: if through a spell like Vault's Unmaking, the Runefang would lose all ist magical properties, the attack would be S4.

[Kimiko]

Rulebook, magic weapons section.

- Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such (...).

It should work as Sword of Hoeth. Maybe in the FAQ it will be clarified?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

The Runefang is a magic weapon that autowounds and does not use any strength at any point in the process. Its chance to wound is not based on any strength value, nor is the armour save modifier. The Pendant Lord can make a save against any strength-based attack. To call a weapon that autowounds an S4 or S=wielder weapon is, I'm very sorry, most silly, and has no basis in the rules. You cannot autowound with an S4 attack, and if you do, it's not an S4 attack anymore.

The fact that the Sword of Hoeth explicitly mentions ASM supports my PoV, and the same goes for a Ghouls poison attacks. They need to use some value at some point because they do allow armour saves, and therefore it must be defined.

The Runefang has no such limitation. It is a different weapon from both the Sword and poison, neither of which can therefore set a precedent, and its rules do not mention a certain strength or ASM.

[Count Wolfenstein]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I think I am going to use the Lector for the GT, but continue to use the runefang in pickup games, it's just so much fun. 

I posted this on the bad dice podcast forums as well, and have yet to get a  response. Warhammer-empire forever! 

[TheBelgianGuy]

I'd say that's heavy rules lawyering, but then again we're talking about the utter cheese lord in the utter cheese army. So yeah, screw Dark Elves, kill 'em.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As Kimoko pointed out: Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such. Combined with p. 51: "In most cases, you use the strength of the attacker's profile, regardless of what weapon they are using. However, some close combat weapons give the attacker  a Strength bonus" makes it pretty clear that the strength of a Runfang attack is S4, even if it autowounds.

[librisrouge]

I think as Runefang is a hand weapon, it strikes with S equal to the user... It´s my interpretation...

could you clarify this? a hand weapon is basic weaponry all models are assumed to have and confers no special bonsues. attacks are made at the user's strength.
the runefang is a magic weapon and has properties different to those of a hand weapon, they are clearly different?

The strength of the attack is still S4, the weapon allows the attack to wound without rolling, and ignore armour saves. Just because the value isn't used for a 'to wound' roll doesn't mean it doesn't have a strength.

+1

Just because he doesn't use his strength doesn't mean he doesn't have one. Str 4 for the TGM.

[csjarrat]

Rulebook, magic weapons section.

- Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such (...).

It should work as Sword of Hoeth. Maybe in the FAQ it will be clarified?

brill, just what i needed. thanks guys

[Syn Ace]

As Kimoko pointed out: Unless otherwise stated, a magic weapon is treated as a hand weapon, and follows the rules for such. Combined with p. 51: "In MOST CASES, you use the strength of the attacker's profile, regardless of what weapon they are using. However, SOME close combat weapons give the attacker  a Strength bonus" makes it pretty clear that the strength of a Runfang attack is S4, even if it autowounds.

So, not all weapons give the attacker a strength bonus. The Runefang would not be one of these. So I would disagree with you that it is pretty clear.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As you yourself have highlighted: what the exceptions are to "in most cases" is exactly explained by: "However, some cc weapons etc". Precisely because I suspected that some would jump on "in most cases", I already included what constitutes the exceptions.

[TheBelgianGuy]

Be silent, Fidelis! You are ruining the Empire's chances to destroy dirty Pendant Lords. 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Our strength is our faith in Sigmar! Never will the forces of darkness prevail!

[Ambrose]

I've only played with the GM once in a unit of 8 knights with a WP (10 man unit).  The unit was VERY killy and I try to incorporate it into my list from now on.  I feel the AL doesn't really add much more than the WPs, and for his point cost, not worth it compared to the GM.

Have you thought about taking an actual General combined with a GM?  If you remove the Wizard lord you would have plenty of points left for a level 2 wizard for magic purposes.  I personally feel wizard lords are far too expensive for their output.

Just a thought.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

On the other hand, even if we allow the Pendant Lord a ward save against the Runefang, he's rolling effectively a 3+ ward which because of the other trickster's shard he has to re-roll. That gives a 1/3 + (2/3 x 1/3) = 5/9 chance of failing any wounds. That's worse than the 4+ ward.

Sure, he might hold up the DG hammer for a couple of turns but he probably will die.

While we're on this topic, how would you equip a General on foot? I'm planning to use this model.



Crown of Command is a given. The White Cloak would help protect him and guys around him. That leaves 15 points. Full plate plus shield plus a magic helmet (helm of the skaven slayer?) would give him a 2+ armour save in addition to his 5+/2+ ward. 207 points is a bit "ouch" and no magical attacks but he's fairly tough and as long as he's alive that horde of halberds isn't going anywhere.

[Grutch]

Can characters join demigriffons?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

If they have mounted a pegasus. Hmm, maybe I should rephrase that....