Topic: Facing Skaven in 8th

[mr chumley warner]

Hi All,

I appreciate that this topic has been run so many times, eg. empire vs skaven, but I wondered what people have found fighting skaven with the new empire book?

I assume that with our state troop pts increase it's quite hard to counter large blocks of clan rats or slaves effectively as we are even more outnumbered now?

What units would you advise taking and what would you leave at home?

BR

Richard

[Lord Solar Plexus]

1. Detachments. More precisely, combat detachments for flank charges. Of course it doesn't always work but when you win - and that should be possible against Slaves and Clanrats - you deny them SiN, which is a huge step towards running them down.

2. Detachments, shooty: Very moderately, but a unit or two of 5-10 Crossbows is often ideal for dealing with ratdarts and weapon teams.

3. Magic missile. Seriously, you want to get rid of annoying Gutter Runners. Good stand-in for missile units, too.

4. Flaming. Okay, everyone has flaming attacks through WP's, which is good. Still, the BotEF costs just 10 points and cannot be dispelled. Just put it on the same flank as the Abom (which can be difficult).

5. Diverters and STanks work against Skaven just like against everyone else. Divert those ROgres or tarpit them. An S4 Steamgun template, ie not the CC attack is ideal to thin out hordes. Bring two, just in case.

6. Death wizard. Kill the General, win.

[zifnab0]

Surprisingly: mortars.

Skaven are just about (Goblins too, but you'll often see them with Orcs) the only army that Mortars are effective against.  Most of the Skaven armies I run against feature MASSIVE blocks of infantry.  The Mortar, despite it's reduced strength and increased cost, is deadly against them.

Alternatively, try using the rocket battery.  It's terribly inaccurate, but you've got lots of targets.

[sammay23]

Steam Tank. Stubborn. And, I think, Heavens. Good magic missiles. Excellent debuffs to keep your troops alive. No unit killers but many spells that can exploit the crowded nature of a skaven army.

Good suggestions regarding detachments.

Lots of redirecting units if you can. One good redirect can foul up the Skaven advance for a turn. Sacrificial units can be really helpful. 

And I'd say no hellblasters.

Divide and conquer to the best of your ability. Use the steam tank to hold up the center, or a flank. Devote yourself to overwhelming part of his force at a time. Don't let him hit your army with all his blocks simultaneously.

[yoy1zoz2mom3]

I would use flank attacks,high armour save models and witch hunters to kill casters and charcters

Demigriffs are amazing against stormvermin

[Clymer]

My anti-skaven strategy goes something like this:
1. Deploy further back than normal to mess up coordination of the a-bomb's advance and give yourself more magic and shooting attempts. Depending on the lore Skaven take, you may find that they are significantly hampered at long ranges.
2. Apply cannonballs liberally to the Screaming Bell
3. Apply small archer detachments and magic missiles to the weapon teams
4. Hope their Warp Lightening Cannons don't kill too much
5. Break up their advance with detachments and small units of knights
6. Counter attack with powerful infantry hordes

It's very stressful to play against Skaven because they have sooo many threats and you have to deal with all of them all at once. But put your faith in Sigmar and gunpowder and don't be too hasty and you can win out pretty consistently.

Demigriffs are amazing against stormvermin

Demigriffs are amazing against most things!

[yoy1zoz2mom3]

True,true

[Maza]

Beware of Gutter runners. They can deploy as scouts OR as "sneaky infiltrators" from a board edge in a turn when they manage a roll of 4+ or something like that. OK shooting and 2 cc attacks, option for poisoned attacks (?). Hard to defend WM's against them, but I've had some success with the HBVG and spells. Something that can pivot and shoot in the same turn (not archers though, their shooting is too weak). Someone here recently mentioned Engineer with Ruby Ring of Ruin, and I'm tempted to try that. 

[kegofort]

Beware of Gutter runners. They can deploy as scouts OR as "sneaky infiltrators" from a board edge in a turn when they manage a roll of 4+ or something like that. OK shooting and 2 cc attacks, option for poisoned attacks (?). Hard to defend WM's against them, but I've had some success with the HBVG and spells. Something that can pivot and shoot in the same turn (not archers though, their shooting is too weak). Someone here recently mentioned Engineer with Ruby Ring of Ruin, and I'm tempted to try that. 

what is the HBVG

[MrAbyssal]

Beware of Gutter runners. They can deploy as scouts OR as "sneaky infiltrators" from a board edge in a turn when they manage a roll of 4+ or something like that. OK shooting and 2 cc attacks, option for poisoned attacks (?). Hard to defend WM's against them, but I've had some success with the HBVG and spells. Something that can pivot and shoot in the same turn (not archers though, their shooting is too weak). Someone here recently mentioned Engineer with Ruby Ring of Ruin, and I'm tempted to try that. 

what is the HBVG

Helblaster Volley Gun.

[Quickbeam]

I do most of what people have already said but I also deploy as far back as possible and just keep shooting(mortars and helblasters and rarely and crossbows or handguns)
and throwing chaff at them( small knight units and archers) for smashing up weapon teams and redirecting)
also if they have a screaming bell smash it with cannons
and be sure to put some Demichickens into their stormvermin. everything else just seems to soak them up and it wastes how good they are. I mean it still does quite a bit but in my experience they really shine against things like stormvermin

[Divineshadow]

Stand back? Hrmmm, why hadn't I thought of that?

Will definitely give that a try next time.

If you can whittle down a flank, it will be ready for you to charge through and then flank their other units when they get to you.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I don't think standing back is a good idea unless you field a true gunline anyways, in which case you have no other option. In general though we do not have enough shooting to make an appreciable impression upon a real horde army. 100 models give or take is not going to make the difference (not talking about unique stuff or characters obviously).

I think it could be worthwhile to go out there and mess with your opponents plans right away. Divert big blocks with archers, charge HPA's with flaming attack nights, ram stubborn troops down his approaches left and right and dictate the flow of the game. Combo-charge as much as possible to get rid of units, try to kill the characters and make them get in their own way.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Kill the general....

use terror causers

Skaven are the one army I would suggest trying the Captasus with the mask of Ieeeek!

[GenOmar]

i hate those rat bastards, their magic in particular.  I always seem to miss dispelling Scorch by one point, then get followed up by power scrolled 13th spell and he gets a pile of rats...now i added the sceptar of stability (add 1d6 after dispell attempt) for that pesky spell.  now my rats stay men - very helpful.

[Derek Contyre]

A fire wizard.

Thats it. Thats all you need. a level 4 fire wizard.

3d6 fireballs? yep.
d3 s4 hits per rank of five models? yep.
+1 to wound on any unit you want? yep.
blast templates at s4? yep.
panic tests? yep
a really annoying wizard for the enemy to try and kill? yep.

Also knights. multiple units of knights.

[Cpt. Wham]

I agree with lore of fire.  My skaven hate everything about it, and it brings lots of pain to the ranks of rat men.  If you can get piercing bolts off on a big unit of slaves, the you are talking about a TON of dead slaves.   Keep in mind that while a unit of 50-60 slaves seems overwhelming, if you can knock it down to 20-30 before getting into combat then it is practically useless.

If they bring their general on a screaming bell, shoot every possible cannon right at it.  Ignore aboms and doomwheels, they can wait.  Killing the general is the most detrimental thing that you can do to a skaven army.   Without their LD bubble, they start to crumble very fast.

If you really want to beat an abom, get the charge on it with some cav.  It could still go wrong as the abom is a freaking gnarly killing machine, but it is your best chance other than smacking a stank into it.  I stopped bringing them in games because they really are broken.  They either do absolutely nothing, or they kill half the opponent's army.  That's not really a fun way to play games, and I don't like giving that sort of experience to my opponent.

Kill the general, reduce the slaves, best of luck

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Kill the general....

use terror causers

Skaven are the one army I would suggest trying the Captasus with the mask of Ieeeek!

If they're not Ld 10 re-rollable they are easily ItP all over the place...the mask is a waste of points.   

[mr chumley warner]

keep the advice rolling gents

any thoughts on lore of life vs Skaven?

[Divineshadow]

The dwellers below can certainly wreck large units with low strength.

Other spells are quite good especially if you manage Throne of vines first.

[Unuhexium]

I played against the buggers yesterday. It was a 1500 pts game and I brought three demigryphs, a steam tank and a cannon as my aces to play. Other than that it was business as usual with a couple of blocks of state troops, BSB, a couple of warrior priests and a wizard lord of life to keep my army from falling apart under the pressure of teeth, tails and tufts of fur.

Skaven have a lot of things with high toughness and lots of wounds, thus "ye' good olde cannon" works like a charm and this skaven army was no different. The heavy hitters were a warp lightning cannon and a hellpit abomination. Both of which need to be dealt with asap.

Skaven infantry rarely pack any serious punch in the strength department which means that anything with a decent armour save will have a field day against them (as long as it's not plague censer bearers). My tank anchored my left centre field and was in close combat most of the game. It didn't receive a single point of damage. One of my demigryphs took a single wound from a lucky jezzail who managed to hit despite storm banner and long range, but other than that they were unharmed. They pack a MAD punch by the way. I've never really given them much thought until I saw them in action.

The wizard lord of life was really useful. At first I thought it might be a bit over the top to bring a level 4 to a 1500 pts game, but when my opponent declared that he had brought even more magic than I had, I was glad that I had gone against my better judgement. Skaven magic is extremely painful and every bit of dispelling power is vital. By the end of skaven's magic phase on turn 1, most of my unit of 30 swordsmen were dead. I later managed to bring a few of them back with regrowth, which turned out to be just enough to keep the unit from being wiped out by the HPA.

My general plan was to neutralize the heavy hitters and then outlast them since skaven can't really be outnumbered or outgunned with our current book.

Anyway, those are my observations so far.

[Derek Contyre]

I played against the buggers yesterday. It was a 1500 pts game and I brought three demigryphs, a steam tank and a cannon as my aces to play

Wow a Steam tank in fifteen hundred?
Your gamers circle must indeed be competetive. . . But that said, if you had a lvl 4 and he brough a helpit and more magic... As long as you had fun.

If you really want to beat an abom, get the charge on it with some cav.

Yeah, it works or it doesn't, I saw about 1250 pts of bretonnians charge that Helpit one game and still didn't kill it for about 3 turns. In which case the damsel managed to cut its throat. 6 to hit, 6 to wound and a 1 for the regen. He then rolled the d3 rat swarms which he didn't have and so it died... Go the Damsel in combat apparently...

But anything with a high armour/toughness will put the hold on that helpit, they are nasty.
Though I am not surprised at GW about it, as the power avalanche of seventh was overall detrimental to the game.

[Ratarsed]

keep the advice rolling gents

Not everyone plays Skaven the same. I'd be very cautious about giving too much credence to the advice here. It will be based on personal experience.

any thoughts on lore of life vs Skaven?

Most lores are of use and it's how you use them that matters. However that said I find Life the most dull of all the lores. It seems too often based about Throne of Vines and Dwellers below. Yawn

[Lord Solar Plexus]

For what it is worth, I faced Skaven for the first time with the new book yesterday. He had 2* 50 Slaves, 2* 50 Clanrats, 3* 5-6 Rat Ogres with 2 handlers each, one WFT, 3* 6 Night Runners, a Warlord on Bonebreaker, a Warlord with Fellblade, a naked Seer with Dispel scroll, BSB and a Warlock with the Doom Rocket.

I had 3 DG, 12 ICk, 11 regular Knights w/ GW, 2* 34 GS + WP, Helstorm, L4 Death, General w/ Hero Slayer + Lumi, so a very combat heavy force. The ICK charged and killed one unit of Ogres but were then combi-charged by a second and a unit of Slaves. The DGK had to charge the Fellblade guy, which ended pretty desastrous of course. One unit of GS was heavily decimated by the Doomrocket and finally killed by the last unit of Ogres. The second GS actually caught some Gutter Runners and some Ogres but were killed in the end as well - the narrow board and a patch of impassable terrain right in the centre meant I couldn't bring them to bear simultaneously. The normal knights took down a unit of Clanrats over four or five rounds, exploded a unit of Slaves that had flanked them (they rolled box cars outside the BSB range) and the Seer but it took way too long (they held twice on Ld 7 despite Doom and Darkness). My General was one wound away from killing his Warlord on Bonebreaker.

I realize people are loath to take the Fellblade for example but it's just one ace amongst many, and it's impossible to rule anything out after all. D6 wounds and no AS means it's a pretty hard counter to a STank or DGK. 

I'm still relatively confident that it would have been possible to defeat him with my list, just with combat power and mobility, it was just impossible to get a flank or even a combo-charge off in this scenario with lots of buildings in the way.

[Unuhexium]

I played against the buggers yesterday. It was a 1500 pts game and I brought three demigryphs, a steam tank and a cannon as my aces to play

Wow a Steam tank in fifteen hundred?
Your gamers circle must indeed be competetive. . . But that said, if you had a lvl 4 and he brough a helpit and more magic... As long as you had fun.

Yup, it is pretty competitive. We play to win and have great fun in the process. Why put more restrictions on your army (and yourself) than the rules already do? If two hard lists clash, the result is the same as when two soft ones do.  Sometimes I bring something that my opponent hadn't accounted for and sometimes the same happens to me. Most armies have good counters for what ever we bring and vice versa. It's all part of the game.