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Author Topic: Tactica: The Griffon Formation  (Read 51734 times)

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2012, 12:32:21 PM »
I had a battle today with the Griffon Formation against a skilled Dark Elf opponent with a combat heavy list.

It was an awesome battle.

I finally learned how to use the Battle Chronicler (hard to teach an old dog new tricks...).  Hopefully it all came out the way it is supposed to.

Anyway here is the new Battle Report Thread: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42976.0

Time to pour myself a tall one!
 :::cheers:::
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Offline Ratarsed

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2012, 01:28:37 PM »
Congratulations on the win. The real test will be how well your formation holds up when things go less well for you. I'm also interested on the sort of tactics your opponent will come up with to try and counter it. This is the sort of thing that makes warhammer what it is! well done! Great report by the way. :icon_biggrin:

Offline mr chumley warner

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2012, 04:46:52 PM »
Luminark must be added into this formation for the 6++ eeeeeeerrrrrrggggg 
Ask yourself , what is real? 5 sense filtered reality is a very limited perspective.

Offline mr chumley warner

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »
I can see the merit , archers are cheaper now, and skirmish formation for screening your big unit,

I might go with 60 Halberds , 30 det Halberds * 2 , all horde LOL

plus archers at the front and rear

I had previously been using 5 militia to bunker my level 4 wizard, but Archers definitely are better , as template weapons etc won't take down as many if you get done, or your wizard explodes etc

 defo a Luminark thrown in,

then build your army plan around this uber block


==================

I'm gonna call my formation ''THE CRAB'' lol

dont know why yet
Ask yourself , what is real? 5 sense filtered reality is a very limited perspective.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2012, 04:58:30 PM »
I'm gonna call my formation ''THE CRAB'' lol

dont know why yet

Ha ha!
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2012, 09:24:56 PM »
I'm also interested on the sort of tactics your opponent will come up with to try and counter it. This is the sort of thing that makes warhammer what it is!

He and I play each other a lot-  and this is exactly what makes Warhammer so bad ass!  The counter tactics to the counters tactics, etc.

Even though we make tweaks all the time, we always try and hold true to keeping the lists as "all-comer" as possible even if we know we are playing each other next.  (For example, my wimpy 5pt magic weapons on two of my heroes for ethereal units). 
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2012, 06:25:07 AM »
I understand that it'll cost more points and is a bit of a waste, but could handgunners be used in place of archers? Is losing move and shoot that big a deal?

I don't like archers and I just want a show army that has teeth.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2012, 07:14:04 AM »
I could see utility in using handgunners for the wizard bunker (if you have a hill handy) or as the parent formation for the Griffon Wing.

Otherwise, the runners out front really need to be archers because they are skirmishers.  They are -1 to shoot at and their maneuverability in getting in the opponents way as diverters is unmatched.
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2012, 08:55:31 AM »
I had a battle today with the Griffon Formation against a skilled Dark Elf opponent with a combat heavy list.

It was an awesome battle.

Indeed, thanks a lot for the great report! However, dense as I am, I don't quite see what is special about the army. You have diverters (skirmishers) up front...and then?  :?
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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2012, 10:30:25 AM »
I could see utility in using handgunners for the wizard bunker (if you have a hill handy) or as the parent formation for the Griffon Wing.

Otherwise, the runners out front really need to be archers because they are skirmishers.  They are -1 to shoot at and their maneuverability in getting in the opponents way as diverters is unmatched.

Hmm, but COULD it work with just handgunnners?

Otherwise since I don't user archers, I can just sub handgunner models for them (provided that I have no other handgunners..)

I suppose I can use crossbowmen models to differentiate...


Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 10:48:10 AM »
Hmm, but COULD it work with just handgunnners?

Otherwise since I don't user archers, I can just sub handgunner models for them (provided that I have no other handgunners..)

I suppose I can use crossbowmen models to differentiate...

Try it out!  The worst thing that could happen is you don't like it and switch to something else.   :-)

I had a battle today with the Griffon Formation against a skilled Dark Elf opponent with a combat heavy list.

It was an awesome battle.

Indeed, thanks a lot for the great report! However, dense as I am, I don't quite see what is special about the army. You have diverters (skirmishers) up front...and then?  :?

I think you pegged it LSP-  nothing special or out of the ordinary about that particular list except for the formation and the way I use it.

My original start of this thread was to explore different uses for stubborn detachment and skirmisher detachments-  and to generate some discussion on other ways we can capitalize on our new detachment rules.
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2012, 04:22:49 PM »
Hmm, but COULD it work with just handgunnners?

If I understand it correctly - which might not be the case -, no, it won't work with handgunners any more than with say a Helblaster. Having a static line of models in front of your detachments instead of a moving one is the complete opposite.

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Offline Calisson

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »
I don't quite see what is special about the army. You have diverters (skirmishers) up front...and then?  :?
It's not only the presence of skirmishers, that's the presence of supertiny units of 5 men skirmishers.
Add also that the combat units benefit all from the Ld of the main parent unit.
Furthermore, this variant below is very original with crossed links between parents and detachments.
If you don’t like having an Archer unit directly in front of your horde, either to be sacrificed or to flee away from any charges (causing Panic tests for your horde and Wizard bunker)… another option is the Inverted Griffon Formation.  In this one, you expand the frontage of the Archer unit in the rear to 6 wide so you can put 2 Archer detachments in front of your horde detachments that are set back.  Each detachment is still within 3” of its parent to start.  Once your movement begins, you can move up both side detachments as needed to protect the flanks of the horde.



-=-=-

I could see utility in using handgunners for the wizard bunker.

Otherwise, the runners out front really need to be archers because they are skirmishers.  They are -1 to shoot at and their maneuverability in getting in the opponents way as diverters is unmatched.
Hmm, but COULD it work with just handgunnners?
In that formation, only the mage bunker could be replaced with any other shooter.
The front detachments must be skirmishers, i.e. Archers.

Offline Folken

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 02:31:41 AM »
The other issue is archers cost 2 points less than handgunners so are far more expendable.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 05:18:16 AM »
At work today (I know, I know-  I should have been working  :-) ) I was trying to think of a better way to answer your question LSP.

I think the graph below, depicting the start of my turn 3, shows the value in having the formation with all of its detachment support.

My Greatsword horde could realistically deal with two of the three nasty blocks facing it in the front (Blackguard, Hydra, Corsairs) in combat at one time.  Fighting all 3 at the same time would probably wipe out the horde in a few combat phases.  No matter how many I was fighting, if the Cold One Knights came flying in from the flank you could just forget it-  game over.

If the Cold Ones had severely wounded the STank on the previous turn, I would have shifted units labeled 1, 2, and 3 towards that side to keep the Knights off my flank for 3 rounds (using one diverter per round).  The Luminark, labeled 4, would have been a last ditch effort if my horde was depleted to the point it could not take on the Knights.  Which means I could have avoided a fight with his killy knights the rest of the game. 


After shifting those diverter units over, I would have pushed my horde into the center to force the start of combat and used my last archer unit (like I did in the game) to get in the way of the Blackguard to keep them off my Knights and out of combat for one turn.

My Knights, on the other hand, finished off the DE Warrior tarpit by Turn 4, and had they caught it, could have potentially gotten a rear or flank charge into his battle line on Turn 5.  Most likely he would have used at least one of his harpy units to stop my left Halberd detachment and would not be able to stop the Knights from eventually joining the center fight. 

The best thing I can say in defense of the formation is that it gives me many options, especially when I am facing lots of stuff I don’t want to fight at the same time.  I can quickly swing them to where they are needed, as depicted in the example above. 

The points I lose to buy time are not that great-  120 for stubborn Halb detachments, 80 for the Archer parent, and 35 for the Archer detachments.  They allow my 430 point Knight block and 573 point Greatsword Horde time to work their hatred on the enemy.

Hope that helps.   :::cheers:::

If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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The Griffon Formation
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2012, 07:45:32 AM »
So how would one go about doing a 10k army with say 5 formations?

3 Double Headed and 2 Inverted?

Yes, I am building a 10k army... More for show, but bonus if it works well

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2012, 08:53:21 AM »
It's not only the presence of skirmishers, that's the presence of supertiny units of 5 men skirmishers.
Add also that the combat units benefit all from the Ld of the main parent unit.

Uh, yes, both have been basic principles since the book came out?  :? Small expendable chaff diverts, strong stubborn parent with combat detachments fights and attrites.

I'm not saying it isn't useful, HHG, au contraire, it just seems a bit like re-inventing the wheel. Okay, so some are using only two units of archers, some are using Halberdiers instead of GS and so on but that's simply an accidental difference, not?

Of course I'm not trying to discredit your work either. Many people might have seen a particular butterfly but there's still only one guy who gets to name it. "Formatio grenadi manus sancti"
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Offline mr chumley warner

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2012, 09:37:43 PM »
i'm just figuring out my crab formation,

it crawls along, with flanking detachments set to severe bus formation, hiding inside the crab a Luminark (the shell for the troops) ,

then with legs made of archers ,



Ask yourself , what is real? 5 sense filtered reality is a very limited perspective.

Offline Ratarsed

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2012, 10:24:27 PM »
i'm just figuring out my crab formation,

it crawls along, with flanking detachments set to severe bus formation, hiding inside the crab a Luminark (the shell for the troops) ,

then with legs made of archers ,
Does it move sideways?

Offline Cpt. Wham

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2012, 10:56:18 PM »

Does it move sideways?

It ONLY moves sideways.

Offline Ambrose

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 03:29:13 AM »
I just made a list for the Griffon Formation.  The list can be viewed here;
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43005.0

Feedback on the parade ground thread would be appreciated, especially how to place the two helblasters (I have them on the two flanks to create a crossfire).

Ambrose
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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2012, 08:45:39 AM »
i'm just figuring out my crab formation,

it crawls along, with flanking detachments set to severe bus formation, hiding inside the crab a Luminark (the shell for the troops) ,

then with legs made of archers ,

Too funny-  if you run it you HAVE to post pictures.
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Counts_Champion

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2012, 05:33:47 PM »
Hello,

Has anyone had any experience using Swordsmen detachments versus halberdier detachments? It seems that if the job of the griffin detachments are to divert and delay wouldn't Swordsmen be better? Or do most people prefer the damage upgrade provides by the Halbrdiers?

Thoughts?

Offline Ambrose

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2012, 05:54:21 PM »
Hello,

Has anyone had any experience using Swordsmen detachments versus halberdier detachments? It seems that if the job of the griffin detachments are to divert and delay wouldn't Swordsmen be better? Or do most people prefer the damage upgrade provides by the Halbrdiers?

Thoughts?

That was my thought too, to have some detachments that can at least hold up the enemy until I can support them.  Their job is to survive in combat until supported while protecting the parent unit while they deal with whatever it is they are fighting.  The second detachment, if not busy on its own, will help the parent unit finish its job.

Swordsmen ARE expensive compared to our other core, but I think they are a good defensive unit.
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Offline Raulmichile

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Re: The Griffon Formation
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2012, 10:45:29 PM »

Swordsmen ARE expensive compared to our other core, but I think they are a good defensive unit.

I run them as detachments and they behave ok so far.
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