Topic: Serious cry for help

[MarkoV]

Ok people, brothers in faith, steel, gunpowder. I need some help on how to kill those nasty ogres.

Now, so far, i was playing 3 games with friend who playes ogres. And so far, he won me easily.

I tried everything. In every game, i casted Purple Sun, killing 15 of his 26 ironguts.(we play on 3k) In one game, he shot all my canons (4 of them) with his 4 cannons in 1st turn. Everytime, everytime, he uses that opshit scroll, and annhilates at least my magic phase, and usualy my wizards. Tried everything. Charging his cannons with anything is pointless, cause of AD str 10 hits. And he has 4 of them. My kongo line with VHS wizard held him for   some time, but then he used scroll, and my wizard went to oblivion. Dunno what to do, how to win. Any advice?

[NPC_Dave]

You have to give us more details on his list and yours. What is he taking and what are you taking.

He uses the Hellheart? You have to keep your wizards back from that but yeah if he rolls high that is going to hurt. I played ogres recently and he was cautious against my steam tank, you have one in your list? Or maybe two plus 4 cannons at 3000 pts. You need to give him more targets than he can shoot in one turn so you can take out his cannons.

[Cpt. Wham]

You mention getting shot be his ironblsters on the charge.  Alert him to the fact that you cannot stand and shoot with grapeshot.   Also, if you guys are playing that grapeshot auto hits, it doesn't in this edition.  You have to roll to hit with it like any other BS attack.

[MarkoV]

Ok, more details. Once, i played with full 6 cannons. He took 1st turn, took 4 of them. 100% hit ratio. Next time, i had 4 cannons, 2 tanks. I played 1st. Took down only 1, w/o engi. He then in return, nerfed 2 of my cannons. I played again, hit 2 of his(more luck) and then his Pantheon(as we call Ogre Death star squad) came. Third time, i had 3 cann with enge, and 2 st, and he played 1st. Whole 3, cannons, and 4 wounds on st. I mean, i know that sounds lucky, but when you consider that rerrols on BOUNCE distance, that is mostly dmg that they make. And i tried to hold my wizards back, but with move 7, and no debuffs(2+ dodge spells banner), they are unstoppable. Yes, i tried PSX, i tried(and did) flanking, i tried congo line, but i seriously don't know how to cope with 4 cannons. Next time(we are playing in friday) i will make 30 vanila knights, and send em in 3x10 regiments. If he manages to kill all of em with grapeshot(op shit) then i dont know what to do. Maybe i will try some good old Outrunners on 24inch to take down one of them, but i must have at least 15,20 of them(hitting on 5, wounding on 6) to do some dmg. Do you require more details? Any detailed report on 3 losses?

P. S. when i said i get shoted while i charge, i should rephrase. I pass his Pantheon, and start moving toward his cannons. I stay on 19inch so he cant move/grapeshot. And i fail charge. If i say on 18 inches, he can move 6, and then shoot me with GS.
But huge thanks on roll to hit info. Dunno how i missed to read that in RB

[jakehunter52]

I share your pain. Last campaign I was in there was an ogre player who just dominated the whole time. Now, I was still playing with the old book at the time but some things definitely translate over. You really have to pick your match-ups carefully, you can run knights and stanks against normal ogres but against a deathstar, they are going to crumble. Instead, try to distract that deathstar unit with as much chaff as possible and outnumber your opponent with drops, that way you will always get a flank or rear when he goes through your screen units. As difficult as it is, try to beat Ogres to the charge. Taking away the impact hits maybe the key to keeping your units soluble or else they fold over under the triple threat of impact hits, large number of attacks and stomps. Speaking of stomps, I feel like demigryphs really shine because they not only take away stomps but are high armour save and fast. That's taking away two key advantages and exploiting a weakness! Taking two units of 3 with a warrior priest in each might do you good. Also, cannons are okay when it comes to ogres. I feel like they never put enough of a dent into a unit of ogres but work a lot better taking out other warmachines and monsters. And yes, take a stank simply to tie up stonehorns. And lastly, life is your friend in this case. Ogres are a wave of destruction trying to drown you but life can give you the durability to stay above water imo. Hope this helps.

[RavenLord166]

This is the list I used when I wiped out the ogre's


3000pts

lords: 664pts

general: 197pts
Barded warhorse
ogre blade
Armour of fortune
shield

arch lector: 197pts
Armour of Destiny: 50pts
Van Horstman’s Speculum: 40pts
luckstone: 5pts
Extra hand weapon: 2pts

wizard: 270pts
Lore of light
book of ashur
Level 4: 35pts

Heroes: 520pts

Captain: 157pts
Battle standard: 25pts
Wailing Banner: 50pts
barded warhorse: 16pts
full plate: 6pts

Warrior Priest: 115pts
Amour of Silvered Steel:45pts
great hammer: 5pts
Magnus(twin headed eagle): free

wizard: 135pts    beasts
level 2: 35pts
wand of jet: 35pts

captain: 113pts
sword of swift slaying: 25pts
dragon helm: 10pts
seed of rebirth: 10pts
full plate: 6pts
shield: 2pts


Core: 870pts

Swordsmen: 170pts
20models:140
Full command: 30pts

Halberdiers:170pts
20 models: 120pts
shields:20pts
Full command: 30pts

spearmen: 150pts
20 models: 100pts
shields: 20pts
full command: 30pts

Swordsmen: 140pts
20models:140
Full command: 30pts

free company: 150pts
20models: 120pts
full command:30pts

Greatswords: 254pts
19 models: 209pts
Full command: 30pts
Banner of disipline: 15pts

Great Cannon: 120pts

Inner circle: 265pts
8 models: 200pts
full command: 30pts
warbanner: 35pts

Demigryph Knights: 423pts
full command:30pts
6 models: 348pts
halberds: free
armour piercing: 45pts

Rare:120pts
hellblaster volley gun: 120pts

[patsy02]

Swordsmen: 170pts
20models:140
Full command: 30pts

Halberdiers:170pts
20 models: 120pts
shields:20pts
Full command: 30pts

spearmen: 150pts
20 models: 100pts
shields: 20pts
full command: 30pts

Swordsmen: 140pts
20models:140
Full command: 30pts

free company: 150pts
20models: 120pts
full command:30pts

Aren't these really easy for an ogre kingdom player to kill? Shouldn't take much more than 4 charging vanilla bulls to trample a unit.

[Cpt. Wham]

@Ravenlord - Your list is puzzling to me for a lot of reasons.  First off, the small units should be not problem for any ogre unit.  Shields on halberds are a waste as they only provide any benefit in shooting, and ogre shooting is s4 AP at it's worst which will void any save you have. You have a lot invested in characters which will have to be sparsely placed throughout your small units and lose the majority of their benefits. Why did you waste 45 points on an armor piercing banner for the demis?   The mounts already have it, and, other than mournfang, almost nothing in the ogre army is going to have more than a 4+ or 5+.  Also, halberds on them are fine and dandy, but if you run into a unit of ironguts you will only be saving on a 5+. 

I'm sorry to say, but even a sub-optimal ogre list would stomp this set up.  What was the list of your opponent?

[Siberius]

I just want to echo that grapeshot should not be enough to deter you from getting closer and charging. It shouldn't kill all that much.

Also just as an alternative, why not try out more foot troops in place of that artillery? Cannons really are not quite so nifty ataking their points back vs cheap infantry. Use those points for more wizards/priests to make you kill harder in combat.

[MarkoV]

@Siberius: Thanks, but some1 already pointed to me that GS doesn't accualy autohit. Wich is amasing, since now i can send 3DG knights and easily eat all his cannons.

Moar wizards means moar OPshit(I refuse to accept that that shit costs only 50 points) scroll deaths Or at least, more wounds to wizards, etc. As for priests, they are good, but i despise that they still can't wear FPA(Much as i don't understand WHYYYYYYY WH can't mount ANYTHING AT ALL), so they have to be invested in some armors, wich is more points on heroes..and his Pantheon(We call it that way since i always manage to kill everylast of his Ogres, but remaining heroes are just to hard to kill, and i'm out of units to fight with him), ie, heroes in his deathstar unit hit hard. Almost hard as his unit

But, to be honest, i can't w8 our next game. He is going down. Faith, Steel, Gunpowder.

[Steve-O]

I usually find OK to be an easy win with Empire.  Cannons for his big stuff, and either Halberd hoards or Knights/Demichickens for the rest.  I have been using LoHeavens and Comets are pretty nifty as thinning out Ogre units.

[MarkoV]

Comets? How? Is your opponent that stupid to remain near comet marker?

[MrAbyssal]

Comets? How? Is your opponent that stupid to remain near comet marker?

It's pretty easy to place a comet marker so that when it lands it will likely hit at least one unit, no matter what your opponent does.

[Steve-O]

Comets? How? Is your opponent that stupid to remain near comet marker?

Place them between his hitters and your lines.  Then he is faced with the choice of weathering the comet and closing, or remaining at range and continuing to be pounded by cannons. 

[Siberius]

It sounds a little bit like there is a lot of stuff you either refuse to use or don't see any value in it.

Experimenting with different builds and ideas usually gets results in the end.

The combination of say miasma from shadow lore and a hurricanum could mean you hitting on 2s and him on 5s. That would seriously hurt their ability to fight you...

[Darknight]

The combination of say miasma from shadow lore and a hurricanum could mean you hitting on 2s and him on 5s. That would seriously hurt their ability to fight you...

Siby : Master of Understatement

[MarkoV]

Comets? How? Is your opponent that stupid to remain near comet marker?

It's pretty easy to place a comet marker so that when it lands it will likely hit at least one unit, no matter what your opponent does.

But even if i hit him(wich i can) without enough markers, he will shrug off that dmg. And don't forget MR3 item, giving it WS4+ for entire unit. And if i roll 7on 2d6 +2, that is not so many wounds. Debuffs and buffs on the other hand...

[Noght]

Here are some thoughts regarding Ogres from a local Forum.  Author is Sleboda (TWF fame).

Now then, it would appear that Ogres may have crossed the line. They don't have a ton or armor, but they have the speed and wounds to make it to the enemy intact. Their cannon is awesome, and in other armies it would still be vulnerable to harpies, fast cav etc, but it's not. It can move. It is a chariot for impact. It fights very well. It has no weakness and even its shot is highly accurate. Mournfangs get the parry save option and are fantastic even without it. Their artillery monster just says "oops" when he misfires. The anti-magic banner is far too effective and totally counters the 8th edition balancing factor of the #6 spells. Monsters are useless against them due to the volume of attacks they pump out and their immunity to thunderstomps. To be completely honest, the appear to have been designed to specifically counter everything that 8th brought into the game. Fighting against them can be a demoralizing experience since they truly do have the answer to anything you want to try. Even the Immune to Warhammer K'daii gets beat by ogres.

Our best options is Busses of Infantry and Cav/Demigryphs in the flank (both immune to stomp).  That's it.  They eat ranked Infantry.  Take a buff magic set and smash em with Knights.

Added:  Flagellants!  How could I forget, keep in your LD bubble so he can't Frenzy Bait you with Cats.  It's not uncommon to do 10ish + wounds with a unit of 7x2.

Noght

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Losing losing losing...

canons (4 of them)
4 cannons
Charging his cannons
6 cannons
2 cannons
3 cannons

I'm sure I've missed some cannon setup you've used but you're probably wasting way too many points on cannon. Empire is primarily a close combat army these days.

Comets? How? Is your opponent that stupid to remain near comet marker?

Stupid? What's stupid about either going backwards or advancing through the marker in front of him? That's right, nothing is, so just refrain from such remarks.

[Ratarsed]

I have found Ogres are somewhat weak on the Leadership front. Especially so outside the generals inspiring presence. I have had quite a few successes with failed panic checks. Also as Nought said Knights and Demigryphs are a reasonable choice as they negate the stomps and units other than Iron Guts struggle against our 1+ saves.

The other weakness that a clever general needs to exploit is the lack of ranks for steadfast. The Ogre armies I have played rarely go past 2 ranks so if you can just win combat by 1 or 2 there is every chance you can break them. Turning the units and flanking them seems the best way to exploit this potential vulnerability and access to stubborn detachments and/or countercharges gives us the tools to do this.

[RavenLord166]

Its how I play. I know people find my style of play unusual, and it surprises a lot of the people I play. Do not know what to say

[commandant]

Also halberd and greatswords are really good against them.   They are normally only toughness four and have no save so thirty halberdier attack with a warrior priest, hitting first with hatred, are going to do some damage.   They tend to try and get the regen off but the warrior priest has as much chance of getting flaming off as they have of getting regen

[Windelov]

Hi  Markov

Could you please post your latest coupple of armylists and sketch your and your opponents deployment. Even, better, do af coupple of battle reports so that the rest of us will learn from your troubbles.

Best regards

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Also halberd and greatswords are really good against them.   They are normally only toughness four and have no save so thirty halberdier attack with a warrior priest, hitting first with hatred, are going to do some damage.   They tend to try and get the regen off but the warrior priest has as much chance of getting flaming off as they have of getting regen

This.

My Greatsword horde has gone toe-to-toe with an Ogre Deathstar and won the day.  Bloody affair, of course, but once his characters drop it is mop up duty after that.  With Stubborn, GS have the time to do it and not worry about ranks.

It is critical to get the charge off to avoid the extra wounds from Impact hits and to toss the right buffs out (Flames if he has Regen going;-re-roll wounds and 5+ WS otherwise.)

I think if you take less cannons as other posters suggest and put the right tools on the battle line you will probably fare a little better MarkoV.  At 3000 points, you can afford it. 

As LSP states:

Empire is primarily a close combat army these days.

I, for one, am loving it.    

[MrAbyssal]

But even if i hit him(wich i can) without enough markers, he will shrug off that dmg. And don't forget MR3 item, giving it WS4+ for entire unit. And if i roll 7on 2d6 +2, that is not so many wounds. Debuffs and buffs on the other hand...

Comet wouldn't do anything noticeable to his 23 Bulls with characters anyway so why bother targeting it. The only spells worth targeting at something that big are the big instakill spells, so Dwellers, Purple Sun, Pit of Shades, the Lore of Metal one that a distinct lack of caffeine isn't letting me remember the name of. MR won't do anything against those as they don't inflict wounds.

Comet will however make a mess of his cannons or other, smaller units if used correctly. As others have said, Comet is as much a control spell as a damage spell.

If you still think that no spells will be able to damage it then turn to Shadow for Miasma or Light for Birona's or Beasts for Wissan's etc. and either hex them to uselessness or turn your Greatswords and Flagellants into Ogre killing machines. I can guarantee that if you've spent every game just trying to shoot him he won't see you as a close combat threat until you put 20+ wounds on his deathstar and run it down. You just have to play smart.