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Author Topic: Theory: The Tao of the Empire  (Read 16775 times)

Offline strollinthewoods

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2012, 06:44:20 PM »
I have some toughts that Id just like to put out there, and see what your thoughts on the matter is.

I dont much like clutter.. lots of replys, and stuff inbetween tend to make a mess out of things. Thats why I like the idea that you first just have a thread were you put down lots of stuff, and if anything there turns out to be good stuff, you then take that good part and put it somewere safe- somewere tidy.

If the threads you made are meant to be the end product, I would be hesitant to put things in there to begin with.. and would rather see that others actually more or less agreed, or even better helped refine stuff before it goes into its right place.

Is the threads meant as a place to discuss and brainstorm, and come upt with stuff that goes somewere else later,- or the end unto itself?
Were if its the latter, I would like a playground to toss ideas around before comitting to them as to avoid unnecessary clutter.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2012, 08:28:43 PM »
I also like tidy...but I have to work with what the administrators will give me.

A separate subforum is out-  so I think the next best thing is to create a few "spaces" or thread categories to toss around ideas and let people put forth their thoughts...will get some good ideas/gems that we wouldn't normally get.  We need collaboration too, in my opinion.

Then, over time, Frisco or someone pulls out the best stuff, organizes it, makes it tight, PDFs it, and releases it back out to all.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:52:32 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
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Offline strassa

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2012, 09:46:30 PM »
That was an interesting read. I do disagree with one premise, namely the relatively sharp distinction between Western and Eastern thinking or philosophy. While it is true that the former will often be more direct than the latter, this usually applies to manners, and as such is often a superficial difference. When it comes to military thinking, examples of Western military leaders using the very same concepts under different names abound even in antiquity: Hannibal, Fabius Maximus or Scipio to name but a few all were acutely aware of the many facets that come together, aspects like terrain, disposition, morale or flanks.
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LSP, HHG was not berating the western philosphy of war. by saying that they dont understand terrain, flanking, etc. I had it explained to be as such when i watch a documetary of Tsun zu (or however you spell his name). Western generals have long been developed with the strategic base of that of a chess board. Chinese generals such as tsun zu come into war with the mindset more along the lines of chinese checkers. I dont know if you have ever played chinese checkers but it ties into HHG point on using shih and flowing like a river to snare your oppenent rather then dominate your enemy like western generals do.

Offline MrAbyssal

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2012, 11:44:40 PM »
Considering we already have a Tactica sub forum and the War Room, what we should possibly be aiming for is to move this to the Tactica sub forum, or at least is sub components as HHG has already kindly done and then we can take the true gems and move them to the War Room in all of their neat, tidy and well illustrated glory.
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2012, 07:40:05 AM »
LSP, HHG was not berating the western philosphy of war. by saying that they dont understand terrain, flanking, etc. I had it explained to be as such when i watch a documetary of Tsun zu (or however you spell his name). Western generals have long been developed with the strategic base of that of a chess board. Chinese generals such as tsun zu come into war with the mindset more along the lines of chinese checkers. I dont know if you have ever played chinese checkers but it ties into HHG point on using shih and flowing like a river to snare your oppenent rather then dominate your enemy like western generals do.

Oh, I did not think he was berating Western military thinking at all. I believe that the general notion of a clear distinction between the two is in some part arbitrary and in some part exaggerated. When we look at battles of antiquity, we find for example that armies tended not to clash immediately upon sighting the enemy and try to crush him with overwhelming force. Instead, they were likely to keep moving and shuffling and waiting, exploring each and every slight advantage. To me, this ties in very well with the image of flow, even though we are talking about blocks of troops. In the same vein, concentration of force or non-skirmishing units were very common in the East.

The number of times a Western commander has laid an ambush or stepped into one or lured his opponent into a trap, or led reserves (flowing) around the enemy, or simply declined battle are legion. Look at Metellus' and Marius' campaign against Jugurtha (if Hannibal is considered Western, then Jugurtha should be) or Caesar's diplomacy in dividing Gallic and "Belgian" tribes, or Scipio Africanus' clever use of a feinted attack on while leading an elite force through a swamp against an undefended part of the wall...

The problem with theories is that they are often vague and have to be filled in with practical examples. When I do look at the examples of battles I read, it would appear that the distinction is often more cultural than of military practice, and more ephemeral than it might appear at first glance. When Herodotus describes the differences between "Western", Greek and Persian armies, order and impetus, free fighter-citizens and servile hordes, then we can extract an element of truth from this but we must be wary of his agenda and the rhetoric device of contrast to sharpen the differences. The truth is more complex when we notice that Darius and others used Greek phalanges themselves in the form of mercenaries. The fact that they did not use them all the time or exclusively can probably be put down to availability of resources more than to any cultural or intellectual differences in outlook.
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - S. Clemens

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Offline davidprice18

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The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2012, 02:42:15 PM »
Thanks to HHG your a genius I have been missing this the whole time and I think this looking at the empire as a machine all cogs rotating together workin together to get the job done is very helpful thank man keep it up

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2012, 08:33:59 AM »
I just created the first post in the Tactica Forum in Tacticas for W-E:  Building Balanced Lists & War Preparation.

I titled it:  The Principle of Balance & Infantry-Based Armies


My 8th Edition Empire list building philosophy is based on the following 5 premises:

1.   Empire has two primary foundations:  cavalry or infantry.  This is your “center of gravity” and the source of most of your shih.

2.   Empire’s most effective approach is a combined arms one (Empire’s Tao).

3.   Every point spent on support sustains the foundation to achieve a combined arms approach.

4.   Forming components is the best way to maximize the shih of your army and achieve combined arms.

5.   Empire can achieve the most out of its combined arms by having one component involved in combat at a time.


Hopefully it generates some discussion...and MORE posts like it.   :::cheers:::
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Offline strollinthewoods

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2012, 11:44:47 AM »
Cant wait to look at this when I have the time. Just skimmed fast through it and it looks pretty awesome to say the least.


Offline MarkoV

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Re: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2012, 06:41:14 PM »
I know you said: No religion! But...God bless you :):eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.

Re: Theory: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2014, 11:49:32 AM »
Greetings!

I have just discovered this article (it was recommended to me by a friend). I apologize for posting here, I don't mean to do thredomancy. I simply wanted to say I registered to this forum only to say "Thank you!" for a very inspirational article. While I don't play Empire myself I often face your armies. However, the principles outlined in the article are applicable to any other army in Warhammer.

Once again, thank you very much! I am sure I will find more to read on this forum that will be of such a great value!

With best regards,

SoH

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Theory: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2014, 11:58:06 AM »
As long as the thread is still valid (and this one is), there is nothing wrong by reviving it. Such threads are dormant, not dead, and I am sure the charge of threadomancy would be dismissed by Holy Inquisitorial Tabernacle.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Re: Theory: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2014, 08:40:47 AM »
Thanks Fidelis!

I hope you are correct as it would be the most unfortunate to make Inquisition angry with the very first post!

I also noticed that HHG hasn't posted for a while, I hope he is going to be back at some stage.

Cheers!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Theory: The Tao of the Empire
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2014, 08:54:41 AM »
Here is probably  THE case of threadomancy, closely followed by this thread.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 09:08:11 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)