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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

  • Imperial Tactician
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Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« on: August 16, 2012, 10:10:54 AM »

Tactical Decision Game 1:  Empire versus the Ogrebus


In the military, they run Tactical Decision Games (TDGs) to test operators and intel personnel on warfighting strategy, tactics, and planning.  There are usually no “right” or “wrong” answers, just different ways of applying military principles to solve problems and make decisions.  Since we have been getting very little participation in the child forum The Tactica Board on expanding Empire tactics and “tricks of the trade,” I decided to start a weekly TDG thread here in the Elector’s Forum to get Empire Generals to think, discuss different strategies and tactics, and have fun in the process.  I think TDGs can help fill the gap between posts on how to use our different units and Battle Reports which we can comment on/learn from but are already complete.

My first TDG is going to run for several weeks with different installments over time in critical decision points of an Empire game fought versus an Ogre army using a “Deathstar Ogrebus” as its backbone.  The Ogre list I am using I pulled from the Ogre Stronghold forum created by one of our own members, Rothgar13.  As many of you probably know, he is a regular forum contributor on numerous Warhammer forums and is an experienced General with several different armies. 

My plan is to offer several different alternatives to our forum members on what decisions we should make at various points in the battle.  Based upon the feedback I get, I plan to go with “the majority rules,” so if you have an opinion please give it so we can give his Ogrebus the best we got!  There is no guarantee that Empire is going to “win” this TDG…his list is nasty and will not be easy to take down!

The list I decided to use was the one I created using my Infantry-Based List Building techniques outlined in the Tacticas for W-E: Building Balanced Lists & War Preparation thread.  In short-  the list is built around Strength in Arms & Shields in Support, which means my troops sport high Strength and all the support in the list is build around defense and keeping the troops alive.


The Good Guys:  Strength in Arms, Shields in Support

49 Halberdiers  FC
          Arch Lector (Gen)  GW, AoMI, Dragonbane Gem, Crown of Command

          5 Archer Detachment

33 Greatswords  FC, Razor Banner
         
          Warrior Priest Dragonhelm
          Captain (BSB)  Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Luckstone, Ironcurse Icon
 
          15 Halberdier Detachment   
          5 Archer Detachment

10 Archers Musician, Standard Bearer
          Battle Wizard Lord Lvl 4 Life, Dispel Scroll 
 
6 Inner Circle Knights FC, Lances, Banner of Swiftness

4 Demigryph Knights FC, Lances, Steel Standard

Luminark

Steam Tank

My Spells:    Life-  Flesh to Stone, Shield of Thorns, Regrowth, The Dwellers Below


The Bad Guys: Rothgar’s Ogrebus

12 Ironguts  Standard Bearer, Bellower

          Tyrant  (Gen) Biting Blade, Armour of Destiny, Greedy Fist
          Bruiser  (BSB) Rune Maw Standard
          Bruiser Warrior Bane, Talisman of Preservation
          Firebelly Lvl 2 Fire Mage, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon

4 Ogre Mournfang Cavalry Standard Bearer, Bellower, Dragonhide Banner

6 Leadbelchers  Bellower

2x 11 Gnoblars Gnoblar Trappers

2x Ironblasters

2x Sabretusks

His spells:     Fire- Fireball, Fulminating Flame Cage
                         

Terrain & Scenario

I rolled randomly for terrain.  Lots of terrain:  two bodies of water, one building, a forest, a regular fence, Blessed Bulwark wall, Anvil of Vaul hill and Wizard’s Tower.  I randomly determined locations and this is what is ended up looking like:





I rolled the Meeting Engagement which should provide us with an interesting battle!


Deployment

The Ogres won the toss to choose sides.  The fictitious Ogre General I am going to name “Bruiser” decided to line up on the side and angle that gave us the least amount of terrain to work with:  the house.  Since he chose the side, he had to deploy all his forces first.  He got lucky and only had two units in Reserve:  a Gnoblar unit and a Sabretusk.

He lined up his available forces as far forward as he could (except for an Ironblaster on the hill), with Mournfangs backed by Leadbelchers and a Sabretusk on the left flank and his Ogrebus, Gnoblars, and other Ironblaster on the right like so:





His Ironblaster cannons are positioned nicely to throw cannonballs on each side of the board no matter where we decide to deploy.  He has an 83% chance of getting the first turn, so he will be in our face quickly no matter what we do.

Empire Deployment Options:

I rolled for all our units and we only have one in Reserve-  but it is the Greatswords and her detachments!  Since we will be on the defensive early this shouldn’t impact us too bad-  but it leads us to our first set of tactical decisions:  how should we deploy our forces, based on the terrain, the enemy, and our reserves?

The Ironblaster’s range is a big consideration for our deployment, so I put red range rings around their potential first move distance and put a blue line on the forward edge of our deployment zone.  Here is what it looks like: 





I did an initial analysis and came up with 3 basic deployment areas to center our defense in:





Zone 1 will center a defense around the house and will allow us to “hide” some assets on the backside.

Zone 2 allows us to use the house to cover one of our flanks and forces the Ogrebus to travel a long distance to get to us.

Zone 3 is a little more aggressive against his left flank-  the Greatswords could pop in at any point along the long edge, forcing him to keep his Mournfangs positioned to respect their entrance.  His Ogrebus would have to maneuver quite a distance to get to the meat of our defense.


Zone 1:
 
Here is the deployment I considered for Deployment Zone 1:





I put our cavalry on the far left flank to threaten the Ironblaster over there and harass/delay his Ogrebus on its way to our defense.

The Halberds are going to sit in the house-  which will protect them from a Mournfang charge and Ogre impact hits.  They will get chewed up over time if assaulted by the Ogrebus but should last a few rounds while the rest of our forces harass.

The Luminark is hidden behind the house safe for a little while from cannon fire, while the STank is positioned to fire on the Ironblaster or Ogrebus, depending on how Bruiser moves them.

Key Pros:
        --the STank will not have to face multiple cannon shots in the first turn
        --the Leadbelchers don’t have any early targets
        --the Greatswords should be able to face the Mournfangs and chew them up a bit

Key Cons:
        --He will be able to move his forces and converge on our defense at about the same time
        --If we are not careful, he could isolate and kill our mobile resources, avoid the heart of our defense, and win by VPs/points denial


Zone 2:
 
Here is the deployment I considered for Deployment Zone 2:





I still like the Demigryphs on the left flank.  They keep him from freely moving up his Ironblaster unless he wants to sacrifice it.  If we roll the STank that way too, both of them can harass/delay his Ogrebus.

I kept the Inner Circle Knights and Archer detachments back to avoid the crazy range of his Mournfangs, but our diverters can easily move up depending on how he surges his forces towards our defense.  The Luminark sits in the center-  providing its Sigmar-blessed 6+ ward save to most of our defense, including the STank.

Key Pros:
        --we have lots of distance and diverter/harassers options to slow him down
        --the Inner Circle Knights are positioned nicely to get in the way of the Mournfangs and become sacrificial lambs
            This would allow us plenty of follow-on charge options

Key Cons:
        --the STank could take multiple cannon shots in the first turn (but with a 6+ Ward Save)
        --the Luminark is not positioned to provide Ward Saves to our far right flank


Zone 3:
 
Here is the deployment I considered for Deployment Zone 3:





I am still sold on having the Demigryphs on the left flank to cause havoc.  This may even force his Ogrebus to run towards our line on the left side of the Wizard’s Tower.  Since two of his diverters/chaff are in reserve, they will have to come in on the long side of the board and play catch up.  This means we will be able to dictate the flow of the battle early on.

I kept the Inner Circle Knights and Archer detachments back to avoid the crazy range of his Mournfangs, but our diverters can easily move up depending on how he surges his forces towards our defense.  The Luminark sits in the center-  providing its Sigmar-blessed 6+ ward save to most of our defense, including the STank.

Key Pros:
        --he cannot be too aggressive with his Mournfangs early on…or we will have plenty of combo-charges available to take them down
        --his Ogrebus has a long way to go…we could potentially divert it/slow it for most of the game
        --the Luminark is positioned nicely in the center of our defense 

Key Cons:
        --the STank could take multiple cannon shots in the first turn (but with a 6+ Ward Save)
        --if he is tactically patient on the first turn, he has the ability to focus fire on the Inner Circle Knights with two cannons and the Leadbelchers, potentially spelling their early demise


Input:

What I would like you to do is to post which Deployment option you like the best and why. 

If you like an option without any modifications, just post the option and why you think it is better than the others.

If you like an option, but would change something, post the option and what you would change.

If you think you have a totally different deployment option in mind, explain it out.  If it gets enough interest, I will create a deployment graph for it.

If you like what someone else posts (modifications, new ideas, whatever) then give them your vote.

At the end of a week, I am going to total up all the votes.  The deployment with the most votes wins.  I will use it and fast forward the battle (move the bad guys, roll dice, etc) to another decision point at which point I will create another thread and repeat the TDG process!

I look forward to your engagement and I hope we all learn a few things along the way.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10067
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 10:13:54 AM »
You Sir.......are a madman!





In the good way like a nutty professor who invents the cure for a running nose.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

  • Imperial Tactician
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  • Never leave the Province without it...
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »
You Sir.......are a madman!

In the good way like a nutty professor who invents the cure for a running nose.

I just can't help myself...it is a sickness.   :unsure:
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

  • Posts: 3212
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 12:12:36 PM »
My vote goes to deployment option 3. While the house is really tempting against strong chargers, with all the characters in the assault team the difference can turn out to be marginal, especially if you can charge him and avoid impact hits. Also, the unit in the house could only support the rest of the army with a time delay. Had your list included a third infantry unit as mine often do, the answer might have been different, as it does allow one to keep the AL safe for much longer.

The most important reason for my choice is that it puts a good distance between us and his best unit. This can allow the Empire to gang up on the Mournfangs and destroy his army piecemeal. This strengthens and adds to the idea of including those detachments, namely to chose the time and fight, dictate movement and put yourself into an advantageous position.

Can those ICK defeat an IB? Then using them as a tag team with the DGK to threaten both the flank of his bus, the Gnoblars and the IB might be considered.
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - S. Clemens

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Offline Warwhore

  • Posts: 228
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 04:09:33 PM »
This is exactly like vote chess! I've been toying around with this concept for some time but just didn't have the time nor the energy to do so. Thank you HHG for your effort. I think we all will learn a lot from this.

I've never played against OK so a quick summary of each units stats and capabilities would be helpful in making a sound decision throughout this exercise.

My vote also goes with deployment option 3 for the following reason: this places his Ogre bus out of position, and we will have a superiority of force on his left flank. Furthermore the placement of the DGK only exacerbates the misplacement of the Ogre bus because if it moves to join the fight on his left flank then the bus exposes itself to a flank or rear charge from the DGK, and any attempt by the Ogre bus to engage the DGK should ultimately fail due to the DGK superior mobility (we could simply march past them at which point we would be behind his lines or we could even maneuver behind the house and play cat and mouse).

I believe his best move if we deploy with option 3 would be to use Gnoblars to protect his Ogre bus's flank from the DGK while the Ogre bus moves into position to support his left flank. With that in mind we should focus all our energy on collapsing his left flank i.e. engage as quickly as possible and focus all our magic and shooting toward that sector. If Bruiser gets the first turn we should consider using the tank to hold up the Ogre bus while we engage his left flank.
It's science. You wouldn't understand.

~The Big Diehl

Offline Warwhore

  • Posts: 228
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 04:25:52 PM »
I would also like to argue that the Luminark of Hysh should be replaced by the Celestial Hurricanum because we have plenty of protection for our troops in the form of prayers and flesh to stone which makes the 6++ provide by the Luminark redundant. Meanwhile the Celestial Hurricanum adds +1 to hit for our troops while also giving us an extra PD to help us muscle through spells like flesh to stone and dwellers. Because of this, I believe the Celestial Hurricanum adds more synergy to our forces.

Just a suggestion...
It's science. You wouldn't understand.

~The Big Diehl

Offline SevenSins

  • Posts: 212
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 04:35:19 PM »
A great idea this!
+1 to lord solar plexus

Offline Biggley

  • Posts: 24
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 05:46:24 PM »
Wow! Kudos sir a great post and a fun problem.

Personally I would vote for formation three.

Why?

1) Put you forces to bear on one part of his spread out line, lots of force in one point is always a good idea.

2) Assume you advance quickly it will negate his shooters while you engage with close combat, and will start to mess up with his LOS.

3) The Mournfang will engage quickly with you men again that will stop his shooters while you fight, this should be used to your advantage.

4) Assuming that you kill the forces in front of you you can then wheel around to attack the rest of the line.

5) The other part of his line has slower moving foot troops so he will take longer to come into your flank, and you should be ready to deal with them by the time they are at you.

How did this battle turn out in the end?

P.s Pack in a cannon or two and a HBVG.
I've killed a man for measuring wrong

Hammer to the face

Offline Empire - Ulric

  • Posts: 312
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 06:31:55 PM »
I would also pick Deployment option 3, for not only the reasons that are listed above but also because it gives us the best chance of being able to use some of the key pieces of terrain on the battlefield to our advantage.

If manned and used properly a unit defending the Blessed Bulwark could make a real mess of those Mournfangs. The -1 to hit would definitely lessen the impact of a Mournfang charge.

It also offers us the best chance to potentially make make use of the Wizards Tower. The Loremaster ability would be a significant boost to our Life Wizard (We currently don't have Throne of Vines)

Offline FriscoEmpire

  • Posts: 86
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 06:40:20 PM »
Man, HHG, where do you live?  I need to buy you a beer.

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 08:16:21 PM »
Personally I favour Option 3 but I would move the halberdiers into the Greatsword Reinforcement zone and as close to the blessed wall as possible and then shift the greatsword reinforcement zone to between the wall and the house.   I would put the stank on the outside of the halberdiers to protect that flank.   I would also shift the DGKs to the other side of the house.

Reasons :

1: The Ogre side with the iron blaster is hopelessly weak   I feel that it is a waste to put the DGKs there.   I want them to be charging between the wizard's tower and the wall where
            - The house and wood both protect them from the iron blaster on that side
            - They will threaten the flank of the Mornfangs and also the iron blasters front.

2: Having all of our forces on one side makes means that the Ironguts have been deployed poorly and would need to spend some turns regrouping

3: The wall is very strong against ogres (denies them impact hits etc)

The problem with this set up is that there is very little shooting in the Empire line and much more in the Ogre line.   It might mean that the Ogres would just sit back and pound the empire line until it cracked.   

Offline MrAbyssal

  • Posts: 1058
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 01:05:59 AM »
I quite like option 3 but I would move the Demigryphs to in front of the house and angled slightly to neither present a flank to the Gutbus or the Ironblaster. This way they can maybe use the forest for a little protection. If the Ironblaster moves out to shoot the Demigryphs they can then charge and destroy it, running through behind the Gutbus.
There are three things each man judges another man by;

1. The size of his codpiece
2. The amount of skulls he carries
3. The length of his feather

Offline Grazhnakk

  • Posts: 54
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 06:21:18 AM »
First: the ogres have two concerns for me.

1 - We need to take out the ranged stuff before it weakens our melee below the threshold of guaranteed failure. He has wisely added the fast threat of the mournfangs there. They hit like a ton of bricks, but are surprisingly fragile to damage.

2 - We need to deal with the aforementioned mournfangs before they can get involved with the ironguts bus.

I like zone 2 better, overall. It's a decent deployment - you can use the house as an unflankable edge and you know exactly where the ironguts will be going. That's one of two places: up against the house to deal with the meat of the army, or after the DGKs, in which case that's wonderful since it gives us more time to deal with the mournfangs.

The blessed bulwark that everyone's ooh-ing and aah-ing over is a red herring. If you bring in your greatswords and stick them on that wall, they won't easily be able to leave it, and most of the fight will be closer towards the house no matter how you deploy. You'll lose two or three turns of movement. This game is won and lost in the movement phase.

Commandant has made one excellent observation: the Ogres have more shooting than us. (Aside: since when did Ogres become shooty? I dislike this new ogre book!) However, the ironblaster on our left flank will take quite some time to get involved.

As a gameplan, I'd push up and threaten the ironguts with the DGKs. Angle the DGKs to direct the ironguts away from the main action, and you should be able to hold the ironguts for a few turns while you push for the mournfangs and leadbelchers. I'm not sure whether I'd like to see knights fighting mournfangs or leadbelchers though. Either way, we have to drive to them. By doing the central deployment, which looks defensive at first glance, and yet still can work as a base to launch an offense from, I think we'd be better off.

Offline Soapstar

  • Posts: 107
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 08:56:04 AM »
I also like deployment zone 3 for pretty much similar reasons as everyone else so I won't repeat them.

I would however make one change and that is to move the Stank in front of the deathstar, and keep the tower between it and the Ironblaster on the ogres left flank. Ideally it would also be a few inches back from the deployment zone but is hard to see exactly on the pictures if this could be achieved and keep it hidden behind the tower (i'd even turn it's flank to the deployment zone to achieve this gotta love random movement for being able to charge out of arcs!)

My reasoning behind this is that it presents the Ogre player with a small dilema (assuming they get first turn) do they advance straight forward with the Ironguts and then take a stank charge the next turn, do they try and charge the stank (which if we managed to deploy 2 inches back from the deployment zone means it is a slightly less than likely charge, 12 inch seperation zone + 2 inches = 14, orge movement 6 plus avg roll of 7 = 13) and risk failing the charge and then getting charged next turn or being tied up, or do they swift reform and go round the back of the tower thus causing themselve to take more time to get to the battle proper and also having the units ahead of them causing them mobility problems, blocking charges etc.

The way I see it any of those options work for us if they move forward with the iron guts i'd assume they'd use the ironblaster on their right flank to move up and take a shot at the stank, this would open however open it up to a flank charge from the DGK who would all get into B2B contact making that combat a pretty one-sided affair. It also means our turn one stank should be able to crash into the ironguts and should tie them up for a few turns whilst we deal with the rest of their army.

If they try to charge the Stank and fail then it's a prettty much identical situation to the one above. If they do charge then it's a little bit worse for the Stank as the Ogres are getting the impact hits instead of us but then gain it didn't have to worry about a iron blaster cannon ball hitting it either. Again the stank should survive for a few turns giving us time to deal with the rest of the enemy.

If they go for the third option and start moving round the back of the Tower it adds time until they reach the empire main body and I'd follow it with the stank giving the gnoblars a good dose of steam the first time to try and break them to avoid them charging the stank and slowing it down and then every turn after i'd pump a cannon through their ranks hoping one of their characters fails a LoS until eventualy crashing into their rear, at this point you'd expect the DGK to have swept through the Orgre right flank and now the Ogre player has a unit of DGK and a Stank in their back field, not a position most generals want!

Now the first 2 outcomes fall down if the stank dies really quickly in combat with the Iron Guts but I don't see that happening, I don't play against Ogres very often so correct me if i'm wrong but I'd of thought it would survive 2-3 rounds depending on if it got shot by the ironblaster. Now this would increase to much longer if our wizard moved into a position within 12inches of it and healed it's wounds every time they cast a spell. I'd also advocate throwing flesh to stone and shield of thorns on it for the first few turns as well giving it T8 would make it very hard to shift even with a Tyrant and 2 Bruisers wailing on it and lets face it there isn't any great targets for dwellers although regrowth might be needed for our main units if they take a pounding from shooting.

So I vote for option 3 with a slight adjustment.

Also HHG not only do you have an awesome name this is an awesome idea which has been executed wonderfully so kudos to you sir!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 08:58:09 AM by Soapstar »

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

  • Imperial Tactician
  • Posts: 2320
  • Never leave the Province without it...
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 12:55:31 PM »
Excellent input so far!   :eusa_clap:


The Current Vote

Deployment Zone 1:                0
Deployment Zone 2:                1          (Graz)
Deployment Zone 3:                4          (LSP, E-Ulric, Biggley, Warwhore)
--Zone 3 Mod Commandant:  1          (Comm)

       (switch Greatswords/Halbs, move tank to Halb flank, move Demis in front of house)
--Zone 3 “Alpha Mod”             3          (MrA, Soap, HHG)
       (combined MrAbyssal and Soapstar’s comments together to form a Zone 3 variant)



Zone 3A- the “Alpha Mod”

Zone 3 and its mods appear to be the most popular at the moment.  Several people mentioned moving the Demis by the house…and Soap made a pretty good argument about the STank facing off against the Bus so I combined them to create Zone 3A (hopefully an acceptable variant for both MrA and Soap because I tossed their votes in there).





The STank may still face 2 cannonballs (one on a long range angle shot) but all the mobile cav is positioned nicely to dart to either side of the tower, depending on need.  Another reason I like moving the Demis over…when I was looking ahead at Bruiser’s options I figured out he can easily push his reserve Sabretusk to divert for the Ironblaster.  The Demis in the center give us more flexibility.  (This option currently has my vote.)

I really don’t see Bruiser making a run at the STank with the Gutbus.  The odds of removing it in one turn are low and we would get a flank charge with the Demis.  Bruiser has much better odds in taking off some wounds from the tank with cannonballs before he has to engage it.

--------Note-------
If you originally voted for a Deployment Zone with no mods, but now like someone else’s suggestion, just post again with a vote for them.  If a modification gets three votes, I will create a graph for it.  You can change your vote freely-  when I close it out, I will just take your last post.


Ogre Analysis

I was going to wait to post on the capabilities of the Ogres in a later segment of the TDG when combat was looming, but it is worth talking about now.  I am sure Rothgar could give a much better explanation-  but hopefully he sees the thread and provides his valuable input…but here goes:

The "Ogrebus," "Gutstar," "Ogre Deathstar," etc, etc
The Ogrebus is the heart and soul of the list.  With 4 characters, he can push the 3 combat-orientated characters up front to replace the command group.  They all are T5 with 4 and 5 wounds…so until you kill them they provide a nasty front that is hard to kill.  The Tyrant General has 5 attacks at Str 6 with his kit and a 4++ WS.  The Bruiser has 4 attacks Str 5 with a 4++ WS.  The BSB with the Rune Maw is somewhat naked with a magic banner with only a 5+ AS, but he also adds 4 Str 5 attacks in the mix.  Even the Firebelly is T5, W4, 3A…and to add insult to injury has a Str 4 breath weapon he can pop into combat.  The Ironguts backing them up swing last, but they are hitting on Str 6.   
If that isn’t enough-  if they get the charge they get 3 Str 5 impact hits, and if they roll a 10+ on the roll to charge, it multiples into D3 impact hits!

So-  the long story short-  you better be serious when you engage the Ogrebus because it is going to put out some pain. 

The Rune Maw also allows the bus a 2+ attempt to re-direct a spell that targets it to another valid target in range.  So as long as the BSB is alive, our Dwellers are not going to be much help in whittling down the Deathstar.  Of course, we could remove nearby targets, but by that time the Deathstar will likely be in combat with our forces. 

Mournfangs
The Mournfangs are also a serious threat.  They get D3 impact hits.  With the Dragonhide Banner they re-roll to hit, to wound, and armour saves of 1 in a turn they charge.  Since they will probably be needing 2+ to wound, they will likely do max wounds.  Unless you hit them with high Str attacks, they will also get to roll all failed 2+ armour saves.  The banner also gives them a Str 3 breath weapon attack-  any unit wounded by it gains Always Strikes Last until the end of their next turn!  If we can manage it, we really need to charge the Mournfangs and not get charged by it.

Leadbelchers
The Leadbelchers get D6 Str 4 shots per model at a 24” range.  Unfortunately they don’t suffer penalties for moving or multiple shots…so they are way more accurate and deadly than our Pistoliers.

Gnoblars
Wimpy-  but they have trappers in them…so they count as Dangerous terrain for anyone charging them-  which would be ugly for any large block of troops.

Ironblasters
The Ironblasters are no joke either.  Besides the crazy cannon they have (which gets multiple bounce rolls), it can use the grapeshot at Str 10!  If we get close to an Ironblaster, we could be facing an artillery dice worth of Str 10 attacks.  Think of it as a one-barrel HBVG at Str 10.  Not sure if our Demis or ICK will live through that. 


A Few Comments

Yes, we are “outgunned” in this one.  I purposely chose a more combat-orientated list to work through and analyze how we can go toe-to-toe with other combat nasty armies.  We all know how to use a cannon and HBVG…this will force us as a group to use tactics and maneuver with an infantry-based list. 

Plus, as it so happens in this scenario against this list, Bruiser could easily pop two of our Warmachines on Turn 1 and we would be in a 200+ deficit from the start.  The STank should live longer than that (hope I don’t jinx it now…)

Anyway, I am motivated by the feedback.  Keep it coming!

 :::cheers:::
HHG
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 11:05:39 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Soapstar

  • Posts: 107
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 01:54:01 PM »
I'm happy with the Alpha Mod HHG so keep my vote there!

Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I'm assuming you are actually going to roll some dice for each turn and then post the reports for them as opposed to just working out what is the most likely situation to happen?

Offline Warwhore

  • Posts: 228
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 03:06:49 PM »
The tally for deployment option 3 is actually four at this point; I voted for it as well.
It's science. You wouldn't understand.

~The Big Diehl

Offline carmaul

  • Posts: 577
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 03:42:01 PM »
Quote from: Holy Hand Grenade link

The "Ogrebus," "Gutstar," "Ogre Deathstar," etc, etc
The Ogrebus is the heart and soul of the list.  With 4 characters, he can push the 3 combat-orientated characters up front to replace the command group.  They all are T5 with 4 and 5 wounds…so until you kill them they provide a nasty front that is hard to kill. 

Your first post:
Quote
12 Ironguts  Standard Bearer, Bellower

          Tyrant  (Gen) Biting Blade, Armour of Destiny, Greedy Fist
          Bruiser  (BSB) Rune Maw Standard
          Bruiser Warrior Bane, Talisman of Preservation
          Firebelly Lvl 2 Fire Mage, Dispel Scroll, Ironcurse Icon

I assume the Bellower is a musician.  My understanding is that the command group has to be in the front rank, pushing characters to the second rank.  So this unit would have the standard bearer and musician and one character in the front rank,  and then 3 characters in the second rank.  I would think that you would put the Tyrant in the front rank for the extra attacks, and then the Bruisers and Firebelly would get 3 supporting attacks each.

Quote
The Rune Maw also allows the bus a 2+ attempt to re-direct a spell that targets it to another valid target in range.  So as long as the BSB is alive, our Dwellers are not going to be much help in whittling down the Deathstar.  Of course, we could remove nearby targets, but by that time the Deathstar will likely be in combat with our forces. 

Does the Rune Maw affect every spell cast at the Gutstar?  or just the first?

Offline Warwhore

  • Posts: 228
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 04:07:52 PM »
My understanding is that the command group has to be in the front rank, pushing characters to the second rank. 

This is true, but as soon as combat commences the characters are allowed a make way move bringing them into base contact with the enemy.
It's science. You wouldn't understand.

~The Big Diehl

Offline Soapstar

  • Posts: 107
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 04:33:25 PM »
Every spell is affected not just the first except vortex spells I believe

Slight point but I thought a tyrant was st 5 not 6 with the biting blade adding armour piercing?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 04:37:25 PM by Soapstar »

Offline carmaul

  • Posts: 577
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 05:07:03 PM »
My understanding is that the command group has to be in the front rank, pushing characters to the second rank. 

This is true, but as soon as combat commences the characters are allowed a make way move bringing them into base contact with the enemy.

I forgot about that.  I wouldnt make way with the BSB though.  Too risky for 1 attack.  I would keep the firebelly in the second rank.  There is no disadvantage to it.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

  • Imperial Tactician
  • Posts: 2320
  • Never leave the Province without it...
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 10:57:22 PM »
The tally for deployment option 3 is actually four at this point; I voted for it as well.

I apologize brother-  I missed you when I was going back through.  I will add you in!

Does the Rune Maw affect every spell cast at the Gutstar?  or just the first?

Every spell that targets the unit will get redirected on a 2+.  Since some spells don't "target" units, like vortexs, the Rune Maw has no effect on them. 

Slight point but I thought a tyrant was st 5 not 6 with the biting blade adding armour piercing?

The Greedy Fist the Tyrant is wearing gives him +1Str in addition to sometimes eating magic items and reducing enemy Wizard levels...

I'm happy with the Alpha Mod HHG so keep my vote there!

Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I'm assuming you are actually going to roll some dice for each turn and then post the reports for them as opposed to just working out what is the most likely situation to happen?

Yes.  I plan to roll dice and we move forward to add the "random element" against us!  Who knows how this is going to turn out!

 
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

  • Imperial Tactician
  • Posts: 2320
  • Never leave the Province without it...
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 09:02:07 PM »
Input has slowed down....so I am going to give it another day and then close it out.

If you want to update/change your vote, now is the time.  Please weigh in if you haven't voted!  Give us your advice!

Right now, Deployment Zone 3 with no mods is in the lead with 4.

The Current Vote

Deployment Zone 1:                1          (Fandir vote/comments are below)
Deployment Zone 2:                1          (Graz)
Deployment Zone 3:                4          (LSP, E-Ulric, Biggley, Warwhore)
--Zone 3 Mod Commandant:  1          (Comm)
--Zone 3 “Alpha Mod”             3          (MrA, Soap, HHG)

 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 03:53:10 AM by Holy Hand Grenade »
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10067
Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 09:22:24 PM »
One should note that you can´t redirect spells via the Maw if you can not target another unit....so as long the lore of life wizard barely has the bus in range....he can dweller them to Jericho!

(and he should do that!)

Even though I am rather alone with this I would deploy in Zone 1 with the exception that I would field the knights on the far right flank trying to hunt down the Ironblaster (perhaps some archers should try to shoot the sabretusk back there too on the other hand perhaps they should kill the gnoblar guards of the ironguts bus....so dwellering them will be easier. )

Both the knights and the demigrpyhs should be carefully placed that no flank shot of either ironblaster becomes possible the stank should try to gun for the right flank ogre ironblaster (picture on the right). That said......I would have deployed further back but instead of creating yet another mod I will roll with Deployment 1


Offline polybus11

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 1.0 Empire versus the Ogrebus
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2012, 12:35:34 AM »
One should note that you can´t redirect spells via the Maw if you can not target another unit....so as long the lore of life wizard barely has the bus in range....he can dweller them to Jericho!

False actually.  The spell is simply wasted and affects no one in this case.