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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« on: September 13, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »
Tactical Decision Game 2.1:  Strategy & Deployment


***Note-  read the following thread to follow along with the Tactical Decision Game 2 storyline:  Tactical Decision Game 2.0:  The Beginning

--The Green Team List can be found here

--The Blue Team List can be found here


-------------------------------------

Tactical Decision Games are a fun way to think through tough situations that Empire Generals face.  It is all about making tough decisions in tough situations… so the next time you face similar situations-  you are ready for them!  Check out Tactical Decision Game 1:  Empire versus the Ogrebus if you haven’t seen it yet to get an idea of what a TDG is all out.  You are coming in at ground zero on this one-  so join us and participate! 

-------------------------------------

Setting the Stage:  The Battlefield

The battle is over an Arcane Ruin in the snowy, hilly northern forests of the Middle Mountains.  Wizards far and wide have seen stars and signs in the heavens that point to something unnatural, something otherworldly, happening in the area.  The College has wizards at the ruins but they can’t explain exactly what is causing the magic disturbance.  Hochland and Ostland have suffered numerous incursions of Destruction raiding parties attempting to reach the ancient ruins.

Our mobile Empire force sent to the scene had little trouble securing the area and enjoying some time out of the cramped cities, catching local game by day and enjoying the stars while telling war stories around the campfires at night…until the Dark Elves arrived…and in force. 
   


Terrain

Snow-silted open fields are doted by small rolling hills in this area with spotty patches of forest.  The Ruins are sandwiched between two hills to the west.  A larger hill to the east has a strange carving near the peak that looks like some kind of Magic Circle.





Scenario

Deployment zones and rules are per a normal Pitched Battle.  6 turns.

The Arcane Ruins give the normal bonus to channeling dice, but it also gives off a special magic energy that grants all Wizards within 6” a +1 to their cast and dispel rolls.   The ruins are impassable terrain- as it represent a mass of fallen walls, boulders, and debris.   

The Magic Circle on the hill is also more powerful than normal- it grants MR3 in a 12” radius instead of MR2 in 6.”

Victory Points are calculated as per a normal Pitched Battle, except there are two ways to gain Special Victory Points: 

     --at the end of the battle, both sides will count up the point values of all units within 6” of the Arcane Ruins (only need 1 model of the unit to be in the 6” range).  The army with the most points in the area gets +100 VPs. 

     --the army with the most Wizard levels within 6” of the ruins (the total of all Wizard levels in range) gets +100 VPs (no points on a tie).


TDG “Winner”

Since Team Blue and Green are not only competing against the Dark Elf opponent but are also competing against each other-  the “TDG winner” is going to be the list that beats the Dark Elf army by the greatest VP margin.  In the event that both Empire lists lose their battles, the “winner” will be the “best loser;” in other words the army that loses by the smallest margin.


The Bad Guys:  Blood Vengeance

Without further ado, here are the Dark Elves you will be facing.

The List

47 Warriors  Spears, Shields, FC, Banner of Murder

          Dreadlord  (Gen) Executioner’s Axe, Other’s Trickster Shard
          Noble  (BSB) Banner of Hag Graef
          Sorceress Lvl 2 Death Mage, Dispel Scroll

40 Har Ganeth Executioners Mus, Standard

15 Warriors  Standard, Musician
          Supreme Sorceress Lvl 4 Metal Mage, Sac Dagger, Seal of Grond

Hydra

12 Shades

2x 5 Dark Riders

2x 5 Harpies

Dark Elf spells:     Metal-  Searing Doom, Plague of Rust, Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robe
                         Death-  Spirit Leech, Fate of Bunja


Dark Elf Army Analysis

Yes, this isn’t your normal DE list.  And no, our opponent didn’t create it specifically to play against us.  I asked him to use his latest and greatest list that he has been working/tweaking for the past month and this is it (you can see an older version of it in my Griffon Battle Report thread as the Half-Griffon versus DE 2500.  I beat him, of course… we are talking about a Griffon Formation…!)

He has learned a few lessons since playing me last time and has made significant improvements to his list and strategy.

He has two main hammers-  the character-backed Warriors and the Executioners.  A horde of Executioners is just plain nasty-  yes, they strike last, but they will pretty much annihilate anything they hit unless you reduce their numbers first.

The Warriors are less potent-  but are still tricked out to cause wounds.  He will run them either in a bus or horde formation depending on what he is up against.  They are supported by two banners-  an ASF banner and AP banner.  Taking out the BSB with the ASF is always a priority.  He runs this vulnerable BSB because he likes having his Dreadlord with Executioner’s Axe get to swing in Init order (GW and ASF cancel each other out).  The Axe’s Strength is double the Toughness of whatever it is whacking on…and each unsaved wound is multiplied to D3 wounds.  I made the mistake of running a STank into his unit before and he almost killed it in one round (he should have killed it but his dice failed him).

Of course, what is a DE list without a Hydra?  I don’t think I need to explain that beast.

Unlike normal Dark Elf lists, he doesn’t have that much non-magic range capability…but the Shades are Scouts and will threaten the rear area almost immediately if we don’t protect it.

He has plenty of diverters to set up charges/combats he likes-  2x5 Dark Riders and 2x5 Harpies.

And, last but not least, his magic phase is plain ridiculous.  He runs a Lvl 4 Metal Sorceress-  not only because he likes to get rid of things his troops may normally have a hard time with, but the support spells Enchanted Blades and Glittering Robes really work well in helping him kill more or adding a much needed +2 bonus to his troop block’s armour saves.  She is carrying the Sacrificial Dagger of course, which gives her an extra power dice if she kills one of the Warriors standing next to her.  The Sac Dagger and the spell Powers of Darkness can turn a subpar Winds of Magic roll into a dominate magic phase.  She also has the Seal of Grond that grants the DE player an extra DD in each of our magic phases!

The Death Mage runs in the Warrior block to get the benefit of the Dreadlord’s Leadership 10.  The DE player always takes Spirit Leech for the sniping spell and whatever else he happens to roll.  Our characters are not that safe when in range of her.   

With my infantry-based Empire armies, I have been able to go toe-to-toe with his earlier variants of this DE list-  mainly due to buffing (prayers and Harmonic Convergence).  In this TDG, our cavalry-based troops are going to face some obstacles…but we have significant strengths too, that need to be used to our advantage.


Tactical Decisions for 2.1:  Magic, Strategy & Deployment

Okay, now to your part.

First off-  magic.

You rolled a 2, 4, 4, 5 for spells.  Which spells do you want to end up with? 

***Note-  for many rolls in the game, I will roll it once for both teams.  Just like the spell roll above, both teams will have the same results/luck to worth with when I can manage it.  Team Blue is working with Beasts, Team Green Heavens.

We rolled off for who gets to decide the table edge.  Empire won.  Which side are you going to pick to start on?

Since you are not standing above the war table checking things out, I created the graph below to assist you in visualizing the distances. 

--The black lines annotate the two deployment zones.
--The orange circle is the radius of the Magic Circle’s MR3.
--The red rounded rectangle zone is the area that is 6” or closer to the Arcane Ruins.  this is the area where the troops and Wizards must be in order to count towards getting the bonus VPs from the special scenario. 





Team Leaders and initial people who post-  I highly suggest you get the team’s input solidified on the two questions above first.  Because the answers to those questions may drive the answers to the questions below.  You can do it how ever you want too…but that is my suggestion.

Okay-  more input I need.

TDG 1 sometimes suffered from a split personality.  The forum as a whole would shift with the wind from turn to turn to try and make decisions about how to handle the nasty Ogrebus.

To avoid that in this TDG, I want the Teams (and forum) to discuss what your overall strategy is from the start.  So-  I will get one Team Blue Strategy and one Team Green strategy.  This will help guide your group in all future decisions.  This should focus discussion.  Agreeing on this should prevent a “split personality.”  It will also help me as a moderator to make decisions/shape the situation for the group in between the tactical decisions I pose to you-   so your forces are doing what you want them to, when you want them to, how you want them to.

Of course, a Team can change its strategy mid-game if the situation dictates (who wants to stubbornly stick to a failed strategy??), but it will require all the members deciding to make a vote on it and the great majority agreeing with the change.

You don’t need to get too specific.  Just looking for a basic strategy.

For example-  your strategy may be to kill certain units first, while avoiding others.  It may be to control certain areas of the board.  It may be to set up certain key matchups that you want to win.  Your group is only limited by its creativity.  The group may not all completely agree, but the majority will rule.

In addition to the strategy, I need a sense of what your overall posture is going to be-  aggressive, wait-and-see, defensive, etc.  You may even decide to be aggressive in combat and maneuver but very cautious in your magic phase.  Up to you.

And last, take a look at the terrain and your forces, and give me a sense of what your deployment strategy is going to be.  Where would you like certain key pieces to go?  Which units do you want to place last?  And which units are you trying to line up with the Dark Elf units to get the match-ups you want?

-------------------------------------------------

So-  I hope this will generate a healthy discussion amongst your team.  I will give this step several days.  I will warn the Team Leaders when time is starting to run out.  Once I close out this step, I will get one Blue Team and one Green Team submission from the Team Leaders (based on the team’s consolidated, agreed upon input) on your magic spell choices, starting board edge, and your Basic Strategy, Overall Posture, and Deployment Strategy.

Please remember-  if you are in the Green Team and talking about Green strategy….then write your text in GreenThe same goes with Blue!  If you forget, at some point go back in and modify your post to the correct colors.  The colors should allow us to work both Teams without getting confused. 

I will be able to check the website tomorrow morning before I get on a plane and then I will be out of pocket for awhile.  So if you have any questions, get them in early.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:06:56 AM by Holy Hand Grenade »
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Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 04:05:02 PM »
Which side to deploy?  Prefer the top, less woods Due to mounted nature.  Central deployment of Artillery.

Spell selection:  4.  Thunderbolt and 5.  Comet are swell.
Recommended swaps?  Double 4 for 1, Harmonic and swap 2 for signature, Iceshard?

Deploy across the board leaving no "Shade" drop zone.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 04:36:51 PM by Noght »
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline zakalwe

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »
I was about to give exactly the same imput as Noght.

Spells, Sig, 1,4,5

Deploy in top zone.

General strategy of wait and see. Probably look at tying executioners up with ST as long as possible, Combined charge required for warriors i think.

Lvl 4 a priority target too ofc.

Need to deal with chaff quickly to allow us to dictate flow of movement.

Offline grifter

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 05:08:35 PM »
I was thinking the same thing for spells: Sig, 1, 4, 5.

I was thinking about the lower deployment zone, with the guns stationed on the hill, but the other one will work as well.

We should try to use our small mobile units to take out his chaff units quickly while holding back the main units, then combine our firepower + several units against his big blocks. His magic phase is going to rip us a new...codpiece opening...but we need to take out the chaff first anyways. Stank + Hellblasters need to take out or weaken the Hydra, and the Stank will have to take on the Executioners, even though it´s going to hurt.

I think we should deploy pretty evenly, with the Stank opposing the Executioners. We need to not expose the Hellblasters to the Shades or the Harpys as well; thankfully we should have enough units to cover them I hope.




Offline Windelov

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 05:20:30 PM »
I created this little list so we know what we are fighting. :icon_wink:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43811.msg743509#msg743509

Offline Dnic

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 05:31:12 PM »
I agree 100% with grifter, with a gun stationed on the lower hill. I think we need to get both special VP for the ruin to win. 

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 05:35:15 PM »

Which side to deploy?  Prefer the top, less woods Due to mounted nature.

Agreed.



Spell selection:  4.  Thunderbolt and 5.  Comet are swell.
Recommended swaps?  Double 4 for 1, Harmonic and swap 2 for signature, Iceshard?

Either the buff spell (reroll 1's) or the curse spell (reroll 6s).  I'm marginally in favor of the curse since we can't reroll after hatred or Hammer of Sigmar.



Deploy across the board leaving no "Shade" drop zone.

Disagree here.  I think we should group on the left side with our two big knights and steam tank on the front line.  Space the HBVG apart and position the small knights & DG along the back to cover the HBVG wherever the shades turn up.

For overall strategy, I favor a defensive role.  Our HBVG limit how far we can range, but we still have a mobility advantage.

Are warrior priests able to channel up to 4 dice when in range of the Arcane Ruins?  If so, lets move our magical resources in range and channel on 9 dice a turn.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 05:37:16 PM by zifnab0 »

Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 05:50:01 PM »
Good points on castling, we should look at it.

Additionally the Curse could nerf the Killing Blow guys, hmmmm
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 06:14:39 PM »
First of I'd like to point out that I've never played competitively. What I have done though is played against the Dark Elves in about 90% of my games.

The list we're up against seems like a bad match up considering our great armour saves and their killing blow horde and the dagger wielding metal-witch, two things I've never been up against.

Regarding our magic choices I want to go with Wyssans (sig), Flock of doom (1), Curse (4) and Savage Beast (5)

Flock of doom is there to possibly kill of some Harpies or Shades. Wyssans is quite obvious, Savage Beast will make our characters one man armies and the Curse is there for the hordes.

My usual strategy when playing Dark elves is to go as fast as I can towards that dagger-witch. This is of course easier said than done, but it's what I wanna try.

 

Offline Empire - Ulric

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 06:17:27 PM »
I was thinking the same thing for spells: Sig, 1, 4, 5.

I was thinking about the lower deployment zone, with the guns stationed on the hill, but the other one will work as well.

We should try to use our small mobile units to take out his chaff units quickly while holding back the main units, then combine our firepower + several units against his big blocks. His magic phase is going to rip us a new...codpiece opening...but we need to take out the chaff first anyways. Stank + Hellblasters need to take out or weaken the Hydra, and the Stank will have to take on the Executioners, even though it´s going to hurt.

I think we should deploy pretty evenly, with the Stank opposing the Executioners. We need to not expose the Hellblasters to the Shades or the Harpys as well; thankfully we should have enough units to cover them I hope.

I agree with Grifter, although I would prefer the bottom table edge for deployment with BOTH hell blasters covering the Arcane ruins.

Also the level 4 in the small warriors unit should be a priority target. Task a unit of demigriphys ro a 6 man knight unit to take her out.

The re-roll 6's spell is not a great choice as we should be feeding the tank to the executioners and it cares not about their killing blow.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:21:03 PM by Empire - Ulric »

Offline grifter

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 06:31:50 PM »
Convergence is also cheaper to cast then the Curse. With two buffs the DE can cast, we might want to throw some dice at dispelling them, so I went for the cheaper spell in the end.

In our early magic phases we should try casting a Comet in the way of one of the big units, that might buy us an additional turn or two before we need to engage them. And Thunderbolt the Hydra/some chaff if we can. Heavens seems like a pretty good Lore in this match-up, moreso then Beasts imho.

Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 06:55:37 PM »
I was thinking Harmonic for the AS re-rolls.

Don't forget the level 4 has a +1 Dispel Dice item also.

Agree she needs to go but she'll be bunkered behind the Hordes.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Windelov

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2012, 07:03:07 PM »

Regarding our magic choices I want to go with Wyssans (sig), Flock of doom (1), Curse (4) and Savage Beast (5)
 


I have never played vs DE, but I like your reasoning and indeed, flock of doom would in most cases cause a panic test in harpies with a reasonable chance of them fleeing (Ld 6). And we really need to clear the chaff. One vote for the above
About deployment, both will work for me, but then I'm not the big cavalry man .

 
And a general question about death magic, we usually play that spirit leach uses the models own Ld as the text states that each caster uses their unmodified Ld values.... But can they (caster and target) benefit from the generals Ld ??   
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 07:13:35 PM by Windelov »

Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 07:06:49 PM »
General question:  do Arcane Ruins block LOS?
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Empire - Ulric

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 08:17:04 PM »
Quote
And a general question about death magic, we usually play that spirit leach uses the models own Ld as the text states that each caster uses their unmodified Ld values.... But can they (caster and target) benefit from the generals Ld ??

This was answered in the FAQ.

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?(p10)

A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

To directly answer you question.... if the General is in the same unit as the caster (or the target) yes they can benefit from the generals leadership.

Offline Windelov

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 08:22:22 PM »
Quote
And a general question about death magic, we usually play that spirit leach uses the models own Ld as the text states that each caster uses their unmodified Ld values.... But can they (caster and target) benefit from the generals Ld ??

This was answered in the FAQ.

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?(p10)

A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

To directly answer you question.... if the General is in the same unit as the caster (or the target) yes they can benefit from the generals leadership.

Except that this is not a Ld test, its a spell where both parties add the unmodified Ld of the model not the unit. But if this is the generally accepted interpretation I will sure use a lvl 1 death mage in a unit with the general ;0)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:05:13 AM by Windelov »

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 08:28:58 PM »
General question:  do Arcane Ruins block LOS?

No-  LOS will not be blocked by it.

It may cause cover modifiers, depending on the origination point and target.

Quote
And a general question about death magic, we usually play that spirit leach uses the models own Ld as the text states that each caster uses their unmodified Ld values.... But can they (caster and target) benefit from the generals Ld ??
To directly answer you question.... if the General is in the same unit as the caster (or the target) yes they can benefit from the generals leadership.

Yep.  The highest Leadership value in a unit "is" the unmodified Leadership value you use for each model in the unit regardless of reason...which in the case of the Sorc sniper is 10 as long as she stays in the Warriors!
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 09:08:20 PM »
Ok Greenies, quick count.  Top or bottom deployment?  Spells?

Top.  0 1 4 5 spells.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 09:12:23 PM »
Top.  0 3 4 5 spells.

Offline grifter

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 09:17:38 PM »
Bottom. 0 1 4 5 for spells.

Offline Dnic

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 09:20:00 PM »
Bottom, spell 0 1 4 5.
Harmonic convergence rocks. Can easy be cast on buffed version, and rerolls 1´s on knights and helblaster is just awesome :)

Offline Empire - Ulric

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 09:53:06 PM »
Bottom Deployment

0 1 4 5 for Spells

Harmonic convergence rocks with lots of 1+ Armor Saves.

Offline George

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 10:14:12 PM »

Regarding our magic choices I want to go with Wyssans (sig), Flock of doom (1), Curse (4) and Savage Beast (5)

Flock of doom is there to possibly kill of some Harpies or Shades. Wyssans is quite obvious, Savage Beast will make our characters one man armies and the Curse is there for the hordes.
 

+1 to this

I feel either side of the board is ok, but preference to the bottom as the hill is screened by a forest whic may hinder the harpies and dark riders while letting us shoot straight through.
am willing to be convinced on a battle plan...

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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 10:16:11 PM »
Where are you at Blue?  Green is whooping it on at the moment!

Nothing like a little "friendly" competition....   :engel:


Are warrior priests able to channel up to 4 dice when in range of the Arcane Ruins?  If so, lets move our magical resources in range and channel on 9 dice a turn.


The Arcane Ruins screw Warrior Priests in the drive-through.  The description specifically states Wizards within 6," not models that have channeling ability.  AL/WPs are not wizards.

Also-  the Tournament Moderators confirmed  :wink:  that our WPs don't count for the "Wizard level" computation for the extra VPs in the scenario.

-----------------------------------

Off to catch my plane.  Should be able to read the forum in some airport lounges...   :unsure:

It is the 14 hour flight across the ocean that I am not looking forward to...
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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Offline Noght

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.1: Strategy and Deployment
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2012, 10:18:41 PM »
Bottom Deployment


Good Gravy, fighting a non-shooing Elf list and you want to shoot through forests rather than the wide open top half?
Yikes.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.