Topic: Leadership question

[reiklander_01]

I have a ld9 arch lector and a ld8 captain in one of my units, is ld9 on two dice better than ld8 with hold the line? I'm no good at mathhammer so I was wondering if anyone on here had done the sums?

[commandant]

The captain would give the hold the line
The arch lector would give the L9

You get L9 hold the line,

but the answer to your question is no I think

Here are the numbers

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=44043.0

[zifnab0]

You have an 89% chance of passing Ld. 8 test with Hold the Line.

You have an 83% chance of passing Ld. 9 test without Hold the Line.

Fortunately, you get to use both!

[reiklander_01]

Awesome, I presumed hold the line could only be used for the model with the hold the line rule! Thanks guys.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

BRB p. 10:

If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Leadership - warriors naturally look to the most steadfast of their number for guidance.

Hold the Line (Army Book p. 32) simply says that a unit joined by a HtL character can roll 3D6 for its Break Test and use the two lower scores. The unit still takes the Break test on the highest Ld.

[commandant]

Awesome, I presumed hold the line could only be used for the model with the hold the line rule! Thanks guys.

It would have been like that in the past but that is to difficult for little Timmy so welcome to streamlining

[zifnab0]

This would be important information to know in the case of a challenge.

Is it better to accept a challenge with your captain (Ld. 8 HTL) or Arch Lector (Ld. 9)?  If you're facing an Empire opponent who refuses a challenge, is it better to send the captain or Arch Lector to the back?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The Arch Lector - because as the rules currently stand, the unit still gets the use the HtL, even if the Captain is removed to the back.

BRB p 102: Furthermore, the model's Leadership cannot be used for any Leadership tests that take place that turn.

However, HtL is not his leadership. Obviously, HtL is quite similar to e.g. Hold Your ground, but here it is expressis verbis specified that this rule is lost when the BSB refuses a challenge.

[Divineshadow]

The captain BSB would provide better leadership and bonuses, but you may want to safeguard the arch lector for his powers, especially if your unit is currently pumped up.

So knowing this, where would a gote/ wp/ bsb combo fit in? Is it just a waste of points on all accounts?

[zifnab0]

However, HtL is not his leadership. Obviously, HtL is quite similar to e.g. Hold Your ground, but here it is expressis verbis specified that this rule is lost when the BSB refuses a challenge.

Right, I misremembered losing "Hold Your Ground" as "Hold The Line" when refusing a challenge in the latest FAQ.

So knowing this, where would a gote/ wp/ bsb combo fit in? Is it just a waste of points on all accounts?

I sometimes run a General & WP in one unit and a BSB & WP in another.  Gives both units HTL and the General's Ld. bubble covers both units.

Expensive tho.  Better to simply take an arch lector on war altar and a couple of captains.

[Darknight]

Is it better to accept a challenge with your captain (Ld. 8 HTL) or Arch Lector (Ld. 9)?

Who's going to kick ass?

[zifnab0]

Is it better to accept a challenge with your captain (Ld. 8 HTL) or Arch Lector (Ld. 9)?

Who's going to kick ass?

In my experience: the other player.

[commandant]

Is it better to accept a challenge with your captain (Ld. 8 HTL) or Arch Lector (Ld. 9)?

Who's going to kick ass?

In my experience: the other player.

Who is better at tanking?

[Nexus]

Is it better to accept a challenge with your captain (Ld. 8 HTL) or Arch Lector (Ld. 9)?

Who's going to kick ass?

In my experience: the other player.

Who is better at tanking?

They are both equally squishy against any enemy character beefy enough to issue a challenge. Instead ask "who gives away less VP?"

[commandant]

Is it better to accept a challenge with your captain (Ld. 8 HTL) or Arch Lector (Ld. 9)?

Who's going to kick ass?

In my experience: the other player.

Who is better at tanking?

They are both equally squishy against any enemy character beefy enough to issue a challenge. Instead ask "who gives away less VP?"

That is not always the case, sometimes one will have better armour, a ward save and stuff.   A captain is normally better at tanking then an archlector if only because of his high WS

[humanityunited]

So do you think it is a good idea to give the BSB full plate, enchanted shield, 4++ and let him take challenges instead of an Arch Lector with AoMI, 4++ and great weapon? The BSB would hit with S4, have one less wound and a worse armour save. No matter what he does, he is a hero and not a lord, so he has one less wound and 50p less for magic items. I think a GotE with full plate, enchanted shield, 4++ and a magic sword is our best tanking character, but the Hatred and the Prayers make the Lector a better choice for the Army General.

[commandant]

It is possible to give a captain the AOMI as well .   If the captain has the same save as the arch lector his higher weapon skill becomes a factor.   If his save is higher [which could be the case] then his higher WS is less of a factor.

[Athiuen]

So do you think it is a good idea to give the BSB full plate, enchanted shield, 4++ and let him take challenges instead of an Arch Lector with AoMI, 4++ and great weapon? The BSB would hit with S4, have one less wound and a worse armour save. No matter what he does, he is a hero and not a lord, so he has one less wound and 50p less for magic items. I think a GotE with full plate, enchanted shield, 4++ and a magic sword is our best tanking character, but the Hatred and the Prayers make the Lector a better choice for the Army General.

If you're giving a lord character the AoMI, it becomes almost redundant to have another ward save.  I'd prefer to have the AoSS and TWCoU (with a great weapon). Then you be have few points left for whatever else you want (5).

[commandant]

Isn't the dawnstone 5 points

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Dawnstone is 25 pts.

[humanityunited]

So do you think it is a good idea to give the BSB full plate, enchanted shield, 4++ and let him take challenges instead of an Arch Lector with AoMI, 4++ and great weapon? The BSB would hit with S4, have one less wound and a worse armour save. No matter what he does, he is a hero and not a lord, so he has one less wound and 50p less for magic items. I think a GotE with full plate, enchanted shield, 4++ and a magic sword is our best tanking character, but the Hatred and the Prayers make the Lector a better choice for the Army General.

If you're giving a lord character the AoMI, it becomes almost redundant to have another ward save.  I'd prefer to have the AoSS and TWCoU (with a great weapon). Then you be have few points left for whatever else you want (5).

It is possible to give a captain the AOMI as well .   If the captain has the same save as the arch lector his higher weapon skill becomes a factor.   If his save is higher [which could be the case] then his higher WS is less of a factor.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is very difficult (if not impossible) for a captain to be better protected for challenges than a Lector, because of his limited magic item allowance and 2 wounds.

For keeping him alive, I believe it is better for the Lector to have AoMI, 4++ Talisman, great weapon than AoSS, White Cloak, great weapon. In both cases he has 5 free points to buy the Ironcurse Icon and offer some defense for his unit against warmachines. I think 1+/4++ is better than 2+/5++/-1 to hit. 

 

[Divineshadow]

Wouldn't it be easier to accept the challenge with the champion?

[commandant]

It is possible to give a captain the AOMI as well .   If the captain has the same save as the arch lector his higher weapon skill becomes a factor.   If his save is higher [which could be the case] then his higher WS is less of a factor.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is very difficult (if not impossible) for a captain to be better protected for challenges than a Lector, because of his limited magic item allowance and 2 wounds.

I donno, for some reason the Arch Lector might just hqve Heavy Armour on while the BSB has AOMI.   Normally that would not be the case but sometimes it is.

Also you could have a good defense on the BSB for 50 point.   Full plate, horse, barding shield, ToP and you're done

Wouldn't it be easier to accept the challenge with the champion?

Well yes but then you need to ask the question again the next turn

[humanityunited]

It's just that the General and the BSB are very important for the army because of Leadership, and gather a lot of hate from the enemy (as his General and BSB gather a lot of hate from us). They are the primary targets for challenges, and most of the enemy characters will kill them unless they are protected. I like the 1+/4++ Lector to take the challenges when he has to (after the unit champion is dead). The BSB gets 1+/5++/Sword of Might when riding a horse and 2+/5++/Sword of Striking when on foot (enchanted shield).

I haven't tried Grand Master+Runefang+Other Trickser's Shard.

I miss the 4++ from the Altar.

[The Peacemaker]

Arch Lector should have Van Hortsmans Speculum to swap stats with a beefy opponent.


Personally I like my BSB to be on a horse in a unit of knights. If he's in an infantry unit I believe the best option is to put him on a pegasus for the extra wound. Then give him the enchanted shield for a 1+ save and a 4 or 5++ save.

General of an Army is good but I think the BSB is far more important. Re-roll Ld tests is better than 1 extra leadership.