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Author Topic: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught  (Read 7534 times)

Offline Noght

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Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« on: December 27, 2012, 07:02:12 PM »
Tactical Decision Game 5.0:  All for Naught
-------------------------------------

Tactical Decision Games are a way to explore Empire strategy and tactics as a forum.  The goal is to share ideas and learn.  The way this is achieved is by pausing a game between Empire and another foe at critical points in a battle to get forum input on what decisions they would make at that junction.  There are no right or wrong answers, just different ways of achieving objectives.  The majority’s voice wins and then we proceed from there.

In the first TDG, Empire infantry was tested against an Ogre Deathstar.
In the second, Empire had two teams of heavy cavalry that faced a tough Dark Elf ist.
In the third TDG, Empire Griffon Formation defeated the dreaded Daemons twice.
In the fourth TDG, Empire suffered it's first loss to Forest Goblins with Fluffy list choices.

In this TDG, the Empire will build on the previous TDG's by adding Dice Logs and real pics from the Battlefield.

-------------------------------------

We are still waiting to decide on our foes (Wood Elves, Vampire Counts, Orcs and Goblins, and Tomb Kings).
We can play 2500 vs all Foes listed.
We can play larger games vs Wood Elves or Orc/Goblins.

However, here is the listing of available models in my Empire Army:

Lords and Heroes

  • Wizards:  All colleges availabe, both Foot and Mounted.  Additional Foot Wizards:  Bright, Death, and Celestial
  • GotE:  Multiple weapon load-outs.  Great Weapon (GW) and HW/Shield, both Mounted and Foot.  Mounted models available for GM.
  • Lectors/WP:  Mounted:  GW x2.  Foot: GW x2, HW/Shield, AHW
  • Captains:  Multiple weapon load-outs.  BSB included.
  • Master Engineers:  Hochland, Pigeon Bomb, Handgun models available, so up to 3 ME.
  • Mounts:  Pegasus x2 (Lance, HW/Shield, or HW/Pistol).  War Altar (Lector).

Core and State Troops

  • Halberdiers x45 Full Command
  • Spearmen x40 Full Command
  • Swordsmen x35 Full Command
  • Crossbows x20 Full Command
  • Handgunners x20 Full Command (choice of Handgun or Brace of Pistols on Champ)
  • Handgunners x14 (Detachment for Spearmen)
  • Archers x20
  • Free Company x18 and x10 (No command, differant paint schemes)
  • Knightly Orders:  Lance x14, Banners x2, Champions x2
  • Knightly Orders:  Great Weapons x12, Banner, Champion

Special Choices

  • 2 Units of Pistoliers x5
  • 2 Units of Outriders x5
  • 2 Units of Demigryphs x3 (w/Banner)
  • Huntsmen x10
  • Reiksguard Knights x11 w/Banner & Champion)
  • Greatswords x40 w/Full Command)
  • Flagellants x36 (12 more nearly complete)
  • Mortar
  • Cannon x2
  • Cannon or Mortar

Rare Choices
  • Helstorm Rocket Battery
  • Helblaster Volley Guns x2
  • Steam Tank

So we need to vote on some things.  We need to pick our opponents but I'd rather we List build first so we're not tailoring it too much.  Which of course requires a "game size".

So for 2500:  Wood Elves, Vampire Counts, Orcs & Goblins, or Tomb Kings.
3000 point game:  Wood Elves or Orcs & Goblins.

So maybe narrow down the game size first....

Polls are open....
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:01:30 PM by Noght »
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline MrAbyssal

  • Posts: 1058
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 10:10:08 PM »
I vote we keep it at 2500 points.

I also think we should keep your roll a D8 for lore of magic house rule as well. I think it may be useful for people who aren't familiar with using every lore if we end up with one people may not use or may not regularly use.

I have a few ideas for the Empire list such as maybe running 2 Knight blocks, a Mortar, no Helblaster, Flagellants etc. but I may be insane. I've also just started work for the day and don't have my AB on me so it can wait until I'm at home. I may even decide to use Spearmen.
There are three things each man judges another man by;

1. The size of his codpiece
2. The amount of skulls he carries
3. The length of his feather

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 10:14:56 PM »
2500 is a good points level.

I'd like to see us use a war altar and build an army around that.

Offline Windelov

  • Posts: 472
Sv: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 10:21:41 PM »
That is a lot of flaggies! Im in for a crusader theme with flaggies, war alter and knights.

Ill vote for  2500 as well.

Offline Eighty

  • Posts: 1038
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2012, 10:24:14 PM »
Thanks for stepping up to the plate. I like the idea of the dice cam/battle cam to add even more to our little games here..

I think we should do the opposite, we seem to run lots of knights all the time (ok we all do) why not a foot sloggers army with a horde of Halberds on one side, a horde of greatswords on the other, and then a bus of spears in the middle with light and beast magic.  throw in some pistoliers and some artillery and BAM.

Pro's
-New list type for our TDG
-Could all learn about proper horde management/placement/appropriate matchups
- watching 200 dudes march up the field ALWAYS looks cool

if we wanted, we could work my idea into a detatchment showcase (if we want, im not so eager to say thats the theme )


*edit using flaggies as well could be great too! it would work with the amount of Warrior priests i want to bring.. we cant afford no stinking armor!
Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats

Offline Eighty

  • Posts: 1038
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2012, 10:26:30 PM »
Thanks for stepping up to the plate. I like the idea of the dice cam/battle cam to add even more to our little games here..

I think we should do the opposite, we seem to run lots of knights all the time (ok we all do) why not a foot sloggers army with a horde of Halberds on one side, a horde of greatswords on the other, and then a bus of spears in the middle with light and beast magic.  throw in some pistoliers and some artillery and BAM.

Pro's
-New list type for our TDG
-Could all learn about proper horde management/placement/appropriate matchups
- watching 200 dudes march up the field ALWAYS looks cool

if we wanted, we could work my idea into a detatchment showcase (if we want, im not so eager to say thats the theme )


*edit using flaggies as well could be great too! it would work with the amount of Warrior priests i want to bring.. we cant afford no stinking armored horses! bring on the infantry
Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats

Offline Saithor

  • Posts: 62
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 12:23:43 AM »
Thanks for stepping up to the plate. I like the idea of the dice cam/battle cam to add even more to our little games here..

I think we should do the opposite, we seem to run lots of knights all the time (ok we all do) why not a foot sloggers army with a horde of Halberds on one side, a horde of greatswords on the other, and then a bus of spears in the middle with light and beast magic.  throw in some pistoliers and some artillery and BAM.

Pro's
-New list type for our TDG
-Could all learn about proper horde management/placement/appropriate matchups
- watching 200 dudes march up the field ALWAYS looks cool

if we wanted, we could work my idea into a detatchment showcase (if we want, im not so eager to say thats the theme )


*edit using flaggies as well could be great too! it would work with the amount of Warrior priests i want to bring.. we cant afford no stinking armor!

+1 to this, evreybody runs knights, would like to see an infantry list.

Offline Noght

  • Posts: 3187
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2012, 03:14:41 AM »
Ok, 2500 makes the most sense, cuts down on the time involved to do the turns and moves vs something like 3K.

Which opens up all 4 potential Army opponents.

Some general tips regarding availability of opponents models:

1.  Wood Elves:  Everything except Fast Cavalry available, including Eternal Guard.
2.  Vampire Counts:  No Ghouls for Core, just Skeletons and Zombies.  Only three Vargheist, no Crypt Horrors.  Almost everything else is available.
3.  Orc & Goblins:  Everything except Savage Orcs and Wolf Riders.
4.  Tomb Kings:  Expect a Shooty/Magic list anchored by Monsters.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Hieronymus

  • Posts: 447
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2012, 08:04:56 AM »
Ok, 2500 makes the most sense, cuts down on the time involved to do the turns and moves vs something like 3K.

Which opens up all 4 potential Army opponents.

Some general tips regarding availability of opponents models:

1.  Wood Elves:  Everything except Fast Cavalry available, including Eternal Guard.
2.  Vampire Counts:  No Ghouls for Core, just Skeletons and Zombies.  Only three Vargheist, no Crypt Horrors.  Almost everything else is available.
3.  Orc & Goblins:  Everything except Savage Orcs and Wolf Riders.
4.  Tomb Kings:  Expect a Shooty/Magic list anchored by Monsters.

1) I think everyone would be highly frustrated to play against the BS shooting double flee Wood Elf list.
2) Could run the Vamp Knight Bus with Blender Lord, that would be entertaining. Would have preferred to go against CH units, but the hey.
3) I'd only be interested in playing against Savage Orcs Big 'Uns, everyone needs more practice dealing with them!
4) Tomb Kings could be fun - I would like to go against the new Crumble mechanic.

Seems that some people want to do the infantry hordes for Empire, but personally I would rather see a bit of an MSU or MMU list; it's pretty tactical.

Would be happy to provide a list if we need to create one.

Ty, Noght
Check the Imperial Office to read my Warhammer vignettes - all feedback gratefully received.

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Offline Dnic

  • Posts: 42
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2012, 10:10:23 AM »
Nice you will do the hard work of running a TDG :)

It will make much sense to fights orcs and goblins again, now we are going to make a tactical against them.

Offline Calisson

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2012, 10:34:34 AM »
Nice you will do the hard work of running a TDG :)
+1.
Thank you Noght.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2012, 11:33:21 AM »
Nice you will do the hard work of running a TDG :)
+1.
Thank you Noght.

+1,000,000   :::cheers:::
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Offline Cannonofdoom

  • Posts: 7746
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 12:15:56 PM »
All for Noght.
CannonofDoom spews his shit at me all the time and I haven't banned him.

Offline Noght

  • Posts: 3187
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 01:36:50 PM »
Here is my Timeframe:

  • Between now and January 13, we can work on lists and stuff.
  • I'm gone to a meeting from January 14 - 18.  Assume little contact.
  • Table set up and Ready for Combat on January 19.

Questions, let me know.

Magic Lore choice:  so far we've used Life (TDG 1), Heavens/Beast (TDG 2), Shadow (TDG 3) and Beast (TDG 4).  So if I'm correct that leave Bright, Light, Death or Metal.  Or I can D8 for it and you get what you get.  Or you can vote on it.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 03:25:28 PM by Noght »
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Saithor

  • Posts: 62
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 03:56:56 PM »
For Lores of magic I'd like to use metal because of the good ranges of hexes and buffs, and for Final Transmutation, especially if we go up against Orcs.

Offline cisse

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  • let the wookie win!
Re: Sv: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 04:12:59 PM »
That is a lot of flaggies! Im in for a crusader theme with flaggies, war alter and knights.

Ill vote for  2500 as well.
How about a solid base of troops with a horde of halberds and a unit of greatswords, supported by wo units of 20-is flagellants? That could be fun. Throw in supporting characters, some missile detachments, and a good artillery base (for instance two times cannon+hbvg+engi) and you have a solid army. We'd need a small unit of archers to have the required number of core units as well.

Lore of magic: I'd actually see if we need a L4. Perhaps only take some warrior priests and a L2, just to do something different?
cisse

No matter how fast you run, your ass will always be in front of me...

Offline Eighty

  • Posts: 1038
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2012, 05:27:51 PM »
so i thought i would throw together something here.

this is not an ultra competitive list, nor have i used Flaggies in 8th edition. I encourage any thoughts as to what we could do to improve character kit out or what have you.


Preliminary List (open to discussion, being ripped apart and refinement.)
2500 - The Holy Warriors*

Arch Lector General - Aomi, Fencers blades

Warrior Priest - Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, 5+ ward
BSB Captain - Full Plate, Shield, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone
Lvl 2 of Light w/ dispel Scroll
Lvl 2 of Light

12 Archers
45 Halberds w/ full command & 5 archer detatch
35 Spearmen w/ full command & 5 archer detatch

24 Flaggies
24 Flaggies
40 Greatswords w/ full command & 5 archer detatch
5 Pistoliers w/ musician

List Synopsis

Deployment
At 2500 we only have so many characters to throw in our big combat blocks. As much as i would love to provide Hatred & Hold the line to every unit - it cant happen unless we sacrifice other parts of the list.

In this List I would place the AL into the greatswords and the Warrior Priest in the Halberds - they both have decent defences - important, because we have to assume our opponent is smart enough to eliminate our Hatred before our Greatswords swing.

The BSb would go in either the Halberds or the Greatswords, depending on who is more central on the board/to our battle strategy.

The 2 light wizards go in the Archers, who plan on deploying behind our two Giant death dealing hordes.

Ideally the Flaggies would go on the edges of each flank, I would place the pistols to prevent the opponent from scouting/vanguarding into weak parts of my line.

Strategy
Using the spears as a lynchpin, march forward to the enemy!
Ideally force him to engage the spears for a round, letting our dangerous units hit him on the flank. If he tries to engage our hordes first, the flaggies can hit him on one flank, while the spears defend the other.

Use light spells to make him have a bad day in combat.
Not the most advanced strategy, but then this isnt the meanest list, I think this list would be fun to play because who doesnt love having 130+ troops fighting for Emperor and country







*Im not the fluffiest person, dont hate on my unoriginality
Trumpets sound around me, the wind blowing through my hair, as fellow gamers look in awe at my Army, secretly wishing they chose empire instead of their stupid rats

Offline zifnab0

  • Posts: 2162
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2012, 06:44:14 PM »
Something I quickly put together:

Lords:
Arch Lector on War Altar w/ Armor of Destiny & Charmed Shield

Level 4 Wizard w/ Dispel Scroll

Heros:
2x Master Engineers

BSB Captain w/ White Cloak, full plate, shield

Level 2 Wizard w/Channelling Staff

Core:
40 Halberds w/ Full Command
2x 10 Archers (wizard bunkers)
2x 5 Knightly Order

Special:
40 Greatswords w/ Full Command

2x Cannon

Rare:
2x Hellblaster Volley Gun

I think that covers most of the nasty stuff we can bring to the table.  Lores are up for grabs.  Light (L.4) and Shadow (L.2) would be my preferred choices, but random is fine as well.

Offline Cannonofdoom

  • Posts: 7746
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2012, 06:58:27 PM »
I vote tomb kings as opponents.
CannonofDoom spews his shit at me all the time and I haven't banned him.

Offline Windelov

  • Posts: 472
Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2012, 08:17:58 PM »
Arch Lector General - Aomi, Fencers blades

Warrior Priest - Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, 5+ ward
BSB Captain - Full Plate, Shield, Dragon Helm, Dawnstone
Lvl 2 of Light w/ dispel Scroll
Lvl 2 of Light

12 Archers
45 Halberds w/ full command & 5 archer detatch
35 Spearmen w/ full command & 5 archer detatch

24 Flaggies
24 Flaggies
40 Greatswords w/ full command & 5 archer detatch
5 Pistoliers w/ musician
Interesting list!

how about running the halberdiers as 2x16 detachments for the spear-bus. You can make better use of your 2 priests which compensates for not having two hordes, and the archer detachments can be associated with the wizard bunker (12archer unit). Furthermore the detachments will be steadfast due to the new detachment FAQ.

The point  surplus could buy us a much needed cannon:)


Offline cisse

  • Posts: 3903
  • let the wookie win!
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2012, 09:38:53 PM »
Eighty,

A very interesting list indeed. The only thing it lacks in my opinion, is artillery support. With no cavalry and little combat strength (no knight bus or demigryphs), you need something else to deal damage at a distance. I'd try to include at least one engi-cannon-helblaster combo. The flaggies can be brought to 20 strong each, one of the L wizards only needs to be a L1, the spearmen bus is good at 30 strong (since it is not supposed to see combat) and I'm sure there is other fat that can be trimmed.
cisse

No matter how fast you run, your ass will always be in front of me...

Offline zakalwe

  • Posts: 227
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2012, 10:00:44 PM »
I'm happy to go against any opponent.

Would prefer tomb kings as its an army i also play.

Otherwise i'm easy. :icon_wink:

Offline Saithor

  • Posts: 62
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2012, 10:15:20 PM »
I vote for a tomb king opponent and zifanbo's list.

Offline SevenSins

  • Posts: 212
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2012, 11:01:38 PM »
Zifnab0's list looks ok

As for opposition both TK and O&G (sav big'uns) sounds interesting

And a big  :::cheers::: to Nought for picking up the mantle!

Offline grifter

  • Posts: 283
Re: Tactical Decision Game 5.0: All for Naught
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2012, 11:27:04 PM »
First up, a round of  :eusa_clap: to Naught...you picked some big shoes to fill, but I´m sure you´ll be up for the challenge!

I´d like to present my proposal for this TDG: The Mixed Arms Army of Mixing it up!

Lords:
Level 4 Battle Wizard Lord (Lore of Death) with Dispel Scroll // goes with the Archers

Heroes:
Captain of the Empire (General) with Handgun, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield and Ruby Ring of Ruin // goes with the Handgunners

Captain of the Empire (Battle Standard Bearer) with Great Weapon and The Armour of Meteoric Iron // goes with the Halberdiers

Warrior Priest with Heavy Armour, Warhorse with Barding and Charmed Shield // goes with the Halberdiers

Master Engineer // goes with one Helblaster Volley Gun

Master Engineer // goes with the other Helblaster Volley Gun

Core:
Handgunners (29) with Marksman with Repeater Handgun, Musician and Standard Bearer
Detachment 1: Crossbowmen (10)
Detachment 2: Crossbowmen (10)

Halberdiers (43) with Sergeant, Musician and Standard Bearer
Detachment 1: Archers (5)
Detachment 2: Archers (5)

Archers (10)

Special:
Demigryph Knights (4) with Standard Bearer

Pistoliers (5)

Pistoliers (5)

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Rare:
Helblaster Volley Gun

Helblaster Volley Gun

Lords: 9,00%
Heroes: 18,44%
Core: 36,36%
Special: 26,48%
Rare: 9,60%

The army has a strong shooting core with the Handgunner unit (deployed in three rows of ten), pumping out 18 BS3, 3 BS4 and 1 BS5 shot a turn, with their detachments adding 20 BS3 Crossbow shots. Units charging them will not have a fun time. The Captain-General goes with them to lend some support should they get charged and to shoot some Fireballs in the magic phase; the extra rank helps them remain functionable after taking some losses.
Everybody knows how disgusting Hellblasters with attached Engineers are by now, and two Great Cannons round out the shooting component.

The Halberdiers help defend the shooting elements, with the Warrior Priest and Battle Standard Bearer lending their support. There have been lenghty discussions about putting mounted characters in infantry units; suffice to say the WP is pretty well protected with his Charmed Shield unless facing a vast amount of opposing artillery. The BSB sits smuggly behind his 1+/6++ armour.
The Archer detachments help clearing chaff and provide a nuisance for opponents themselves in the meanwhile.

The 10-man Archer unit serves as the standard Wizard Bunker for the Death Mage who helps with debuffs and character sniping, hopefully scaring opponents enough for Fireballs and Prayers to go through unmolested.

4 Demigryphs are a tough unit to deal with as we´ve learned in past TDG´s, and in this army they serve the specific purpose of hitting units that get to close to the shooting elements, refraining from venturing far from the BSB unless a very juicy target presents itself.

Last but not least, the Pistoliers are there to spread disarray in the opponents lines and hunt dangerous Warmachines or Wizards down should the opportunity present itself. They´re the first line of defense and should be used to make sure the opponent can´t hit our lines with more then one unit at a time.

The army is unlike the lists we have used in TDG´s before, but it makes use of some of our most powerful units, while at the same time trying out an unusual element (these days) in the large unit of Handgunners. All of the models used are on Naught´s list except for a few minor details (shield on the WP or Handgun on the General).

It was built to cover all bases: Gunners, Crossbows and Hellblasters for killing infantry; Cannons to take care of big scaries; Helbardiers to break Steadfast and go toe-to-toe with most other core units; Demigryphs to hit hard and dirty; Death magic to snipe characters; Ruby Ring to fill the Magic Missile-gap in Death Magic and to help against Undead; Pistoliers and Archers to disrupt the opponent´s movement. The Characters are purely there to support the units in those roles, and to keep the morale up. I think it´s a pretty fun and solid list and would love to see it used in this TDG!