Topic: MMU/MSU Empire tactics?

[EmpiresArsenal]

I recently just played a 1400pt game where my largest unit was 16 Swordsmen, and the rest of my troops where units of 11 Spearman and Handgunners. I did slide in a unit of 5 knights, 1 mortar and 1 cannon. I realize Spearmen are the worst (pointless) to have as msu. The point was to see how well I could use the worst possible set up for msu.

Surprisingly (to me at least), the game was mega competitive, and I feel the tactics proved to be the reason. I had 0 killing power (damn wood elves can't be hit by bullets!) and 0 buffs outside of magic (no WP, CotE/GotE, wagons) , but it was a good way to learn.

Outside of the obvious factors (or not) of points size, opponent, or type of battle, how do you guys feel The Empire performs at msu tactics in 8th ed and the new AB? I don't know if I stumbled upon good luck, or if this is a viable way to get an alternative army list without the large units of halbs and greatswords as well as regular tactics?

P.S Im sure there is another thread on this somewhere, but the search function seemed to have failed me.
P.P.S I did lose the battle, but was clearly the inferior army, and the game came down to a single combat that could have went either way, just rolled slightly too low. 

[Athiuen]

When running MSU lists every unit has to fulfil very specific functions.  In 7th it was easy to the abundance of stubborn/unbreakable units mainly thanks to flaggelants power and being able to take them as core.  Now, however, it is much harder to get the same power from infantry, as GS's have gone up a point and Flaggelants are near to useless.

So I suppose for core you'd need 1 block of halberds as a base for your general, supported by 2 5-10 man archer detachments (since they are so freaking useful); I'd imagine you'd need to take knights to fill up the rest of core (since IC are great as core and you don't want any other larger infantry units);  You probably want to use cannons, rieksguard and DGK's exclusively in special as they are all fantastic (maybe greatswords, but they're hardly a powerful choice anymore); and in rare you'd need HBVG's maybe buff wagons if you're really good with placement and a steamtank? 

Heck this is only me guessing.

So perhaps:

An Arch Lector on Foot.      (Lot's of saves, maybe Speculum)
A Wizard Lord.                    (Something that benefits small spread out units, Heavens - Life - Shadow)

A mounted BSB.                  (in the IC Knights or Reiksguard, Crown of Command?)

Block of Halberds              (30-45)
     2x detach of archers    (5-10 per unit)
IC Knights          (5-8 in the unit)

DGK's                 (3-4 per unit)
DGK's
Reiksguard        (5-6 per unit)
GS's                   (14 max per unit)
Cannon              (1 or 2)

HBVG
HBVG
STank
Flaggelants?     (14 max per unit)


In fact I'm playing a game on Monday so I may well use a list like this to see how it fares.

[Athiuen]

So my list is, at the moment (i can be persuaded to change):

2500/2500

AL - AoMI, GW, Luckstone, VHS.   (To deal with nasty Lords)
WL - Lvl 4, Shadow, Dispel Scroll.   (To debuff as necessary)

CotE - BSB, FP, Sh, CoC, Warhorse w/ Barding, GW.  (To use high S vs S3 troops or the shield against higher S ones)
ME -                               (with the HBVG's)
ME -

45x Halberds - FC          (anchor for the line)
    detach 7x Archers      (chaff)
    detach 7x Archers      (chaff)
8x IC Knights - FC          (hammer/anvil)

3x DGK's - Champ          (hammer)
3x DGK's - Champ          (hammer)
1x Cannon
7x Reiksguard                (anvil)

2x HBVG
1x STank                        (anvil)

In retrospect this doesn't seem all that MSU, or perhaps it doesn't seem all that different from a normal list i'd play.



Deployment Notes:

• Halberds centre to provide leadership to the army as the general and likely the wizard will be in this unit
• Stank to be deployed on opposite side of the halberds to the ICU+BSB as it doesn't need the Banner

[Joey_Boy]

SmithF did a series of battle reports with MSU Empire in the 7th ed book and have been toying around with the 8th ed book as well.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=94537&start=0

[mr chumley warner]

doh  sorry guys, what does MSU stand for?

[Athiuen]

Multiple small units

[Noght]

doh  sorry guys, what does MSU stand for?

Multiple Small Units.

I did it last year with the old book, 2200 and 3000

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42582.0

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42156.0

See Joey's post....

[mr chumley warner]

ahah

I guess an MSU list would have more versatility in battle, and a better chance of engaging enemy unit flanks.

WHat other benefits are there?

[Joey_Boy]

ahah

I guess an MSU list would have more versatility in battle, and a better chance of engaging enemy unit flanks.

WHat other benefits are there?

Points denial when needed. Staying away from the arms race so you don't need a bigger rock then your opponents rock, leaving you with one dead and one close to dead unit worth silly amounts of points after the tooled out 'death star' type units clash.

Removing a lot of bad match ups. If your staying away from expensive stuff like STanks, big knight buses, hordes of 40-50+characters ect. All of the sudden that 6dice dweller/searing doom/whatever will be rather pointless and have you opponent risk miscast for little to no gain. redundancy in units preforming the same task also helps here.

For me MSU/MMU is like looking at your army like a tool box. Your opponent brings his hammer, knife and screwdriver that he expects to need when working. You bring your car around filled with different tools of all shapes and sizes! This gives you a wider range of options that the opponent lacks, and while he might have a single power-screwdriver you have several normal once in different sizes and shapes. Both will do the job at hand in different ways, but only yours can fix other problems and if one breaks your opponent needs to go home while you pick up another screwdriver and keep on trucking

[Noght]

ahah

I guess an MSU list would have more versatility in battle, and a better chance of engaging enemy unit flanks.

WHat other benefits are there?

It's way more fun than pushing big blocks at each other?  Horde on Horde action is like so last year!  Haven't done it with new book yet, though I might....

[mr chumley warner]

I love the concept , but I would be worried about one unit routing, fleeing through the rest, followed by a mass Empire panic and run!

 

[Noght]

I love the concept , but I would be worried about one unit routing, fleeing through the rest, followed by a mass Empire panic and run!

 

To heck with the Routing, you flee all the time, hence the BSB and War Altar 18" General Bubble......

And if you keep the stuff cheap, who cares.  MSU got a nerf because the cost for the required Muso's went up to 10.

[Joey_Boy]

I love the concept , but I would be worried about one unit routing, fleeing through the rest, followed by a mass Empire panic and run!

 

Thats a problem. But on the up-side you get a huge understanding of angles and 'flow' of units on the table. When I run this type of army with my WE Iv never had any problems with panic. But then again Iv been playing this style of armys for 3-4 years now.

[Borgio the Besieger]

If your wondering if it can work and be competitive? The top player at my FLGS plays MMU and MSU exclusively. He balks at Hordes of all kinds, and takes them apart fairly easily. He likes the versatility multiple smaller units provide and wins by combat resolution through flank and rear charges. He strives to put no less than 5 units on the board (His dwarf tourney list does have only 4 units, but 3 warmachines in addition.)

The biggest weakness I see with this type of army for Empire is the low leadership. The leadership "bubbles" do become more important. You have to get use to playing the way we did in the old days before everyone started running two blocks of troops within 12" of a guy with a battle standard. In other words things will break and they will run unless you can get enough piled onto the other guys unit to win combat resolution.

This style of army has become less viable I fear. The new Empire rules book does seem to lend itself to playing just one or two large units with the rest of the army being built around them.

[RavenLord166]

what is classified as a small unit exactly?

[Captain Alard Krusen]

I would suppose 20 is considered small, and 30 medium. Less than 20 doesn't really do much unless they're greatswords or knights.

[RavenLord166]

Ohhhh well in that case most all of my army is small multiple units.

[Captain Alard Krusen]

I guess 15 could be considered small, but would there ever be any good in fielding a 5x3 of swordsmen or halberdiers? Sounds like Elf nonsense.

[mr chumley warner]

I like to run 80 Halberds lol

[rothgar13]

MMU is indeed a strong option for Empire, especially with artillery support to whittle Hordes down a bit. MSU... not so much. Very few Empire units have the Leadership and the stand-alone effectiveness required for MSU - that's more the realm of armies like Elves and Warriors of Chaos.

Also, no love for the War Altar on an MMU list? It spreads out the Hatred love without forcing you to fork over more points on Priests, it keeps you from concentrating your points too much on one place, and it can contribute in combat (let's not forget it's an S5 Chariot that doesn't cough up much return CR). I'd say that's the first thing I'd reach for if I were designing such a list.

[EmpiresArsenal]

MMU is indeed a strong option for Empire, especially with artillery support to whittle Hordes down a bit. MSU... not so much. Very few Empire units have the Leadership and the stand-alone effectiveness required for MSU - that's more the realm of armies like Elves and Warriors of Chaos.

Also, no love for the War Altar on an MMU list? It spreads out the Hatred love without forcing you to fork over more points on Priests, it keeps you from concentrating your points too much on one place, and it can contribute in combat (let's not forget it's an S5 Chariot that doesn't cough up much return CR). I'd say that's the first thing I'd reach for if I were designing such a list.

Probably just hasn't been mentioned because the war alter is less effective when you really start spreading the units out. And as you said with MSU, I kept running into the problem of taking panic test on 7's. not awful odds, but enough to ruin a gameplan.

[Thirsty Beaver]

As a long-time Lizardmen player, I've found that I play my empire similar to how I used to play Lizardmen.

This could be due to a lack of infantry at my disposal (only 60 non-shooty models), but its also how I like to play.

When I played lizardmen, it was all about skinks, and then hammers. My arguably only "anvil" like (or big-block) was Temple Guard if I took them at all. Skinks only have leadership 6 un-buffed (yes cold-blooded helps), which meant I was using them to harass, redirect, and be a nuisance (flank and rear charges).

Taking this to empire (and the point of my post) has been working really well for me. The first things in my lists are: ICK, Pistoliers, and bowmen (either detachment or screen).

EDIT// Oh! I forgot to mention I usually take Heavens magic as well.. I really am just playing a human Lizardmen army

7-8 ICK with the gleaming Pendant

units of 5 Pistoliers (haven't done the math if 6 or 7 would be better for breaking. I leave it at five so its not worth shooting at with anything real)

Bowmen screen surrounding a warmachine or wizard, or small detachments to another unit.

Depending on the size of your game, maybe captasus bsb.

Flagellants in units of either 10 or 14

And I have had success with small suicide units of militia. Either buff them, or just throw them at the enemy

Naming these units I use and their sizes may not have been that helpful, I guess I'm trying to say that it can work. Haven't tried >2k game, so maybe this is only feasible for smaller games

EDIT// Oh! I forgot to mention I usually take Heavens as well! I really am just playing human Lizardmen..

[EmpiresArsenal]

Flagellants in units of either 10 or 14

How does this play out? It seems to me after the "end is nigh", and/or if playing enemies I4 or higher, those Flagellants may not even get to attack let alone hold up a unit.

[Noght]

Flagellants in units of either 10 or 14

How does this play out? It seems to me after the "end is nigh", and/or if playing enemies I4 or higher, those Flagellants may not even get to attack let alone hold up a unit.

Having to Martyr is one of the reasons small units of Flags might be a problem now....

[malladin_ben]

I wonder about 35/17 regiment/detachment split. I used this split to reasonable success in a tournament recently. Halbardiers with swordsmen detachments for the core and greatswords with halbardiers for special, add in some 14 man flagellants and cheap WPs add perhaps a unit of knights or two, along with the obligatory canons and you should be about right. I like the war altar a lot, but I think you need to have a stank and wagon in the list for target saturation, and I'm not sure this type of list can afford all those points.