Topic: Ulric-y MSU ideas

[Ether Dude]

Hello all,
I like running MSU lists.  Specifically, units not uber-characters, 7 model "armies" or pain trains of 7 juggernaughts. 

Fortunately, the Empire is all about normal humans struggling to get by in a world filled with rerollable 3++ ward saves, thunderstomping monstrosities and armies that can run away all game yet still manage to get 100-point wins.

Incidentally, I've got about 30 of the teutogen guard models lying around so...empire it is!

I've been looking around for some inspiration on how to get this project rolling.  SmithF and swordmaster over on TWF and UB is an internet-guru for the MSU community and I've been following those reports with interest.  Still, SmithF has got a kind of quixotic mindset that prevents him from doing things like taking 2 cannons.  Both SmithF and swordmaster are a lot better at this kind of play (and warhammer in general) than I am, so a few crutches are warranted.  Call em training wheels eh? 

It seems like a lot of list building ideas center around massive block+all the buffs with other things running around the periphery.  Well and good, but if you notice, most of those buffs have a 6" radius (or can with the waltar).  Additionally, heavens, light and metal magic all have tasty 12" range versions of their spells, or have hexes that target a single unit.  I think this is kinda cool, and allows you to influence multiple combats if you set it up right. 

Now, the downside is going to be range and leadership.  Since men are only ld 8ish, you really want them to be near the BSB and general.  Again, cue the waltar that's got 18" inspiring presence, covering half of the table.  This lets you spread out a bit more, while preserving passable leadership of 9.

I think I have the "core" of the army pretty well set up.  When I say core, I mean units that will do work, not actually "core 600".  I'd like to see if you all have thoughts on how well this may or may not work, and what kinds of add-ons would be helpful.

Keep in mind my meta varies wildly, so I'll be up against ETC warriors one game and MSU wood elves the next.  It's a nice variety.

Core (true core)
6 Knights-Musician
6 Knights-Musician
6 Knights-Musician
10 Archers
10 Archers
10 Archers

Special
10 Greatswords-Musician
10 Greatswords-Musician
10 Greatswords-Musician
3 Demigriff Knights-Musician
3 Demigriff Knights-Musician
3 Demigriff Knights-Musician
Cannon
Cannon

This comes out to around 1788 points, leaving 600-700 left to play with.  As you can see, the force is pretty skeletal, but nothing in there is worth more than 175 points, which is actually pretty cool.  I like the knights in packets of 6, and while I'd kind of like to give them great weapons, I'm not sure I can justify it.  Admittedly, I'd do so when I was up against "fluff" lists.

While the remaining points seem like a lot (~25% of the total allowed) there are several high-cost things that need to be included.  Primarily, I need a BSB, some magic, ld9+ and some force multipliers.  Ideally, I'd like to chuck in a couple of captasuses to run around causing havok and something to mitigate the pain that can be brought by super-nasty characters.

In order to get everything I want into the list, I'm probably going to have to cut things out of the "core" and figure out ways to combine elements from the "must have" and "would like" lists.  For instance, putting a lector on a war altar gets me force multipliers (hate bubble, prayers), leadership (ld9 inspiring presence) and he *might* be able to be tooled to deal with big nasties.  We're talking blood thirsters, flying doom bulls and demon princes here.  The BSB is another interesting option on this front, as he can get the speculum, a 1+ armor save and a great weapon.  In reality though, I'm not quite sure if/how to mitigate said big scary things.  It's possible that the cannons will do that just fine for me.  Speaking of, Ulric would not approve of blasting away, so if you have ideas on how to get by without the big brutes, please feel free to pass your ideas along. 


The easiest target in terms of extra points is a unit of demis, dropping down to 2*4, rather than the more fragile 3*3.  Still, if there are ways to preserve the mass-o-units I'd quite like that.

Magic is pretty straight forward, but I'm wondering if 2*lvl 2 on heavens or beasts would be better than a level 4 on light/heavens.  The aoe versions of spells go out the window, but curse of anraheir, ice-shard blizzard and wildform are absolutely amazing spells.  I don't think metal is necessary as the cannons should do just fine, there ought to be enough hate to make +hit not that useful and most of the things you *need* to metal off have a 2++ of one sort or another (MR or dragon helm/gem/armor).  Death is no good as you're only ld 8 and the snipes are all about drawing dice so you can get sun/doom and darkness/soulblight off.  Fire is kinda cool, but only really for flaming sword and flame cage.  I'm not worried about chaff as I've got 12+ units worth of it. 

Quick note on the war altar: with the 6" bubble, the prayers become a lot more intimidating, especially if you are free to move the war altar into positions to do the most good.  For example, against standard etc vampires (2*8 crypt horrors, skelebrick with all of the characters), flaming cannons are the LAST thing that your opponent wants to let through.  So what do you do?  Hold 2 dice till the end of the phase and threaten to take off his precious regen.  The same is true for chimeras et. al, so I don't think this is a scenario limited to the above matchup.  By the same token, once in combat, rerolling wounds for demis is crazy, especially when coupled with +1 to hit and hate.  But if the opponent decides to stop those, out comes the wild form/ice shard blizzard etc etc.  As you can see, the war altar does an awful lot, even if it is scary-vulnerable.

I did play one game with this style of list and got absolutely battered   I'll chalk it up to not being used to units that don't skirmish!  Also some pretty bad deployment and ld rolls.  I'm eager to keep at it as I think this approach will salve the wounds modern warhammer is inflicting on my vision of how the game should be played.  I realize I can't play the fluff-bunny card with 9 demigriffs, 2 cannons and knightly core, so I think I'll just leave it at "but look I took small units of greatswords!" and call it a day.

Please let me know if you have thoughts about tactics (set things up in identical "task forces" or mix-n-match to try and get more force concentrated in one area?  Spread out or cluster up?  Charge it all or sit back?), the list (Best way to spend 700 points?/Don't take so many demigriff units you cheesey-barsteward!/Cannons are terribad, take detachments of 5 spearmen instead./You need more variety in your unit choices./etc.) or other random musings you may have.

TL;DR See skeleton list above.  What can be done to improve it without going 600 point knight unit/12 demigriff/3 cannon/2 HBVG/2 engineers?

Cheers,
Ether

[Darknight]

The relative cheapness of the Empire characters is often overlooked - you say the Ld8 (or even 7) problem is rampant in an Empire army, and this can be the case once your units start moving apart and away from Inspiring Presence bubbles. You can put a Captain in some (most?) units for not too many points. He gives a decent LD and "Hold The Line" and is no slouch in combat. You don't really need to give him magic items - he is there to provide Ld for units getting out of range of the rest of the battleline.

Hopefully, this sort of character heavy army would not fall foul of your desire to not go for cheese - I don't see a fair number of leaders being wrong in an Empire army.

[The Peacemaker]

BSB on pegasus so you get the extra wound and mobility. Or use the special character dude with the 18" bsb bubble.

The war alter seems to static for your MSU lists. I think a general on Griffon would be good. Karl Franz on Deathclaw would be best. You get a Ld 10, 18" bubble and he is great in combat.  Also, the war alter hatred bubble is better for maximizing attacks which means you want a halberd horde, its still really great with demi-gryphs.

I also think Lore of Life would be better in your list than the bubble spells your talking about.  You need something to thin out the enemy hordes. And that means dwellers below.  I might even consider mortars.... hmm... only if you take a shadow wizard though.

I would also add another cannon. With MSU your enemy will be reforming all over the place which will let the cannon smash through the sides.

[Naitsabes]

I presume you don't play "blood and glory"? 

what bothers me about this type of list (and what I think smithF is doing to win with this list) is that you basically want to get flank charged into the stubborn greatswords to receive the minimum number of attacks and pin the other unit in place. it just looks wrong basically side-stepping towards the enemy (a little bit of an exaggeration there)  Having said that it still does take a lot of skill to pull of a win with this list I would think.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I believe re-rollable Ld 8 has a 95 % chance to pass. Perhaps Mr Schwarzhelm running behind the lines is something for you? I'd also add the Gleaming Pennant and the SoD somewhere. You also usually only need to be concerned when you lose combats. While this is surely going to happen, one pip of Ld doesn't matter when you're not steadfast anyways.

MSU lists work just fine as long as you are a) mobile enough to avoid unfavourable combats, b) can do damage at range and c) strike a balance between units with a punch and chaff. I think your idea encompasses all three aspects, so try it out.

Not to throw a wrench but your DGK cost more than 175 points. If you need to find the points to fit something in, I'd rather drop some Greatswords over DGK. The latter provide all the punch in this list, and less would not be good. You cannot cut a lot in core, since you need 625 points (if you're aiming for 2,500).

Lastly, nobody ever gets everything he wants in a list, be it 500 or 5000 points.

Magic: I keep saying that there's no truly crappy lore. I've been picking them blind for some games and they've still performed as well or as bad as before. The usual question one has to ask is: What do you lack? What strength do you need to build upon, and what flank do you need covered? First of all, I'm trending towards an L4 just to increase the chance to get spells / dispels through. Heavens is a candidate on an L4 because it makes you tougher, can help with WM and killing blows and weakens units prior to a charge.

Should you prefer 2 L2's, I say Beasts and something like Shadow, Heavens, Fire, Death. The first two help you win combats. Fire helps you deal with chaff - you say you don't need this help but catching skirmishers with heavy cavalry is more difficult than you might think, sending more than one unit means said chaff does what it is there for, and a little flaming never hurts (well, the opposition perhaps). Death's base spell is good on Ld 8, believe me. You don't need to outright kill an Ld 10 General, and it will bounce from MR 2 + 4++ guys but many BSB's or Wizards aren't that well armoured and sport only Ld7 - 8 themselves. And it is a threat for anyone with better Ld (who will often mince even DGK). Drawing out dice isn't bad at all.

Still, the L4 is probably better. You need all the PD you can get and +2 is nearly one of those.