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Author Topic: Closing the door with a steam tank  (Read 1610 times)

Offline Belak

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Closing the door with a steam tank
« on: April 15, 2013, 03:46:02 AM »
So my question might be double headed.
Q. When I pivot the steam tank and hit a unit, do I still have to close the door?

Q. If I hit a unit and cannot fully close the door, or the enemy cannot fully close it either, where does the steam tank end up as it moves randomly?

Thanks guys.
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2013, 04:31:49 AM »
Q. If I hit a unit and cannot fully close the door, or the enemy cannot fully close it either, where does the steam tank end up as it moves randomly?

Apparently no one seems to recollect the rule about the enemy closing the door. Which leads to odd charge blocks that don't seem quite right.
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2013, 06:54:52 AM »
A1. I'm pretty certain every unit closes the door regardless of their movement type since it has nothing to do with the movement type.

A2. If the STank cannot close the door, the enemy unit does. If no-one can, no-one does. The Stank evidently ends up where it ends up when it cannot go any further...? Not sure if that was your question, it seems pretty obvious?
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2013, 08:00:55 AM »
A1. The Random Movement rules do specify (BRB p. 74):
If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range (my emphasis)

which does imply that the door must be closed.

A2. BRB p. 22 Unusual Situations: If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails.

The BRB does not specify what to do when a unit with Random Movement fails its charge. However, it does (p. 74) say: If the Random Move brings the unit to within 1" of a friendly unit or impassable terrain, it stops immediately and cannot move further during that movement phase.
In the absence of an FAQ, I would apply this also in the case of failed charges.
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 08:12:04 AM »
A2. BRB p. 22 Unusual Situations: If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails.
Steam tank aside I've had players say it there has to be clear path for the charging unit or it fails, the defending unit never closes the door.
I had a thread about a month asking the question about the charged unit closeing the door and only got one response saying no. Then the thread died off.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 08:49:01 AM »
I assume, you mean in the case of units with Random Movement? Or in general?
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Offline Noght

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »
A2. BRB p. 22 Unusual Situations: If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails.
Steam tank aside I've had players say it there has to be clear path for the charging unit or it fails, the defending unit never closes the door.
I had a thread about a month asking the question about the charged unit closeing the door and only got one response saying no. Then the thread died off.

If the charging Unit is able to close the door, the charge Unit never moves. 

As Fidelis pointed out if the successful charging unit is unable to close the door then the charge unit will close the door. 

No clear path required assuming you follow all the normal rules of charging, including a 90 wheel.  In fact the new charging rules allow you to make some interesting charges including around an obstacle and then using your freewheel to close.
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Offline Belak

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 09:14:46 PM »
So, does the steam tank Also get to wheel up to 90 degrees when charging?

If I am reading it right, I should pivot to face my enemy, roll distance, move tank Ito combat with a free 90 degree wheel to hit best location in unit, close the door.

Is this correct?
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 09:27:57 PM »
So, does the steam tank Also get to wheel up to 90 degrees when charging?

If I am reading it right, I should pivot to face my enemy, roll distance, move tank Ito combat with a free 90 degree wheel to hit best location in unit, close the door.

Is this correct?

As far as I've read as soon as you touch the unit thats it, your in charge. Either you or opponent closes the door. In the rare circumstance both are blocked/prevented from doing so then the charge fails.
The close the door is a 'free' move, even for random movement since the main thing about charging is being able to read and touch the unit.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 10:45:02 PM »
Not quite. You "measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range" (my emphasis).
So, measure first; if this measurement shows that the unit would come into contact with an enemy, this is considered a charge and you use the normal rules of charging for the actual movement of the unit, i.e. move in a straight line with one free wheel of 90 to get into contact with the enemy, and then either you or the enemy closes the door.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 10:49:54 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Belak

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 11:07:04 PM »
Thanks Fidelis, this makes good sense.

I had an odd situation come up where an opponent was effectively using a screening unit to prevent me from getting a good line to charge with only the first free pivot and then the move distance. But I can definitely see that because the dice had allowed me to have charge range, the move is now treated as a normal charge as you described.

Thanks
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Offline The Ol Perfesser

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2013, 12:00:08 AM »
Not quite. You "measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range" (my emphasis).
So, measure first; if this measurement shows that the unit would come into contact with an enemy, this is considered a charge and you use the normal rules of charging for the actual movement of the unit, i.e. move in a straight line with one free wheel of 90 to get into contact with the enemy, and then either you or the enemy closes the door.

Hi Fidelis,
Are you sure that a random mover gets the 90 degree wheel?
I thought it was a straight line move period.  Subsequently, if that straight line move contacts an enemy unit, then it is considered a charge.
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Offline Noght

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 12:43:02 AM »
Random mover doesn't get a free 90 wheel on the "charge".

It will however "close the door" if its random move is sufficient to contact a target directly in front of it (not its front arc, only straight ahead).
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2013, 01:49:08 AM »
Hi Fidelis,
Are you sure that a random mover gets the 90 degree wheel?
I thought it was a straight line move period.  Subsequently, if that straight line move contacts an enemy unit, then it is considered a charge.
Fidelis was responding to my question about charging in general with concerns to closing the door.

With random movement you declare no charge, you move the unit and if it touches the enemy it counts as a charge. (closing the door though is the original topic of the thread and I don't know enough to comment on that).
This allows you tow wheel all the way around or go in zig zag direction or whatever.
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Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2013, 08:18:15 AM »
As far as I've read as soon as you touch the unit thats it, your in charge. Either you or opponent closes the door. In the rare circumstance both are blocked/prevented from doing so then the charge fails.

Not at all. In that case you simply do not close the door. You're still touching and fighting.

With random movement you declare no charge, you move the unit and if it touches the enemy it counts as a charge. ...
This allows you tow wheel all the way around or go in zig zag direction or whatever.

The Random Movement rule is one of the messiest. I agree that if the "move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging", since that is quoted from the BRB. However, at this point the move is over. If it was still underway, we would not yet have found out if it contacted the enemy. We might know that from measuring the distance but the rule does not say "if the measurement is found...". Ergo, if the move is over, we cannot resolve it according to the normal charge rules after the fact.

Alternatively, we are both wrong, and the unit is not moved first and measuring the distance and meeting the value required for contact already is enough to count the subsequent move as a charge, which could now follow all the rules for charging, including a single wheel - no unit can ever zig-zag charge. 
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Offline Krokz

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 08:57:01 AM »
We play it like this (ETC style).
 You move random mover like always. You need a clear path towards an enemy and if you hit it you count as charging. That means you must maximize combatants, that is the main reason you need that 90 wheel with a random mover.
Of course random mover is totally bullocks when charging next to a friendly unit or impassable terrain, since your not technically charging till you make contact and you must apply the 1" rule until then. We ignore that rule in these instances but only if the distance rolled is enough to contact the enemy.

Enemy must close the door if you can't. If neither can't then it is a illegal charge in the first place. So you must do something else with that unit.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 09:00:29 AM by Krokz »

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 09:24:36 AM »
As the Old Perfesser suspected and as Krokz indicates, the 90 wheel does in fact apply to Random Movement too, as is indicated by the Random Movement rule itself.

Random Movement, BRB p. 74:
There is a chance that the model's peculiar movement will cause it to come into contact with an enemy, so measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range.

The normal rules for charges include the "Move Chargers" rules on p. 20 and there is no indication in the Random Movement rule that these should not be applied. However, in the vast majority of cases (if not all), this will not make a practical difference, as the Random Mover needs to have a clear path anyway, because when you measure the distance and it would come within 1" of a friendly unit or ompassable terrain, the movement would stop immediately.

Edit:
Enemy must close the door if you can't. If neither can't then it is a illegal charge in the first place. So you must do something else with that unit.

It would not be an illegal charge, it would be a failed charge. However, as I explained above, the BRB does not give clear guidelines how to deal with this situation for Random Movers.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 09:39:55 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Krokz

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 10:27:18 AM »
It would not be an illegal charge, it would be a failed charge. However, as I explained above, the BRB does not give clear guidelines how to deal with this situation for Random Movers.
BRB p.16 "Can I charge?" says "A unit cannot declare an impossible charge". You can indicate if the unit will be able to close the door before rolling for random mover so a player is noted that he will be unable to complete that charge before he chooses direction and rolls the dice. Should be close enough.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2013, 10:42:06 AM »
BRB p. 16 is not applicable here, for several reasons.
First of all, a Random Mover does not declare a charge at all. If it is found that his move would bring him in contact with an enemy unit, then that counts as  a charge.
Secondly, BRB p 16 goes on to explain an impossible charge as "one that it cannot possibly complete, either because the enemy is outside of the charger's maximum charge range, or because intervening obstructions make it impossible for the unit to make a charge move that allows it to move into contact". Neither of these would apply in this case, as the Random Mover clearly comes into contact with the enemy unit within its maximum range- it is just that the door cannot be closed, which BRB p. 22 defines as a failed charge.
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Offline Krokz

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2013, 10:53:08 AM »
Your forgetting the last paragraph: "To make such a judgement (if charge is possible), you'll need to know how charge move is completed (see page 18)."

But I do agree that its fuzzy. Random mover cannot fail a charge so at our games we just move it 1" away from the enemy it tried to charge and could not complete it due to things like failing to close the door.

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 10:54:10 AM »
"measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found"

Here's the first disconnect. What move? I thought I'm still measuring before moving? "The move" entails its execution, so my model has already reached its target. And then part one doesn't make any sense or is redundant. I always measure before I move. I never move without knowing how far, that's borderline cheating.

"to take the unit into contact with an enemy this counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range."

The distance rolled as its charge range? What charge range? Even if we have not executed the move already as outlined above, does that mean a random mover does not have an unlimited charge range? What do I need to use the charge range for when i already know the distance? That's the first thing we do...?!? 

Good riddance to this parody of a "rule" in 9th.
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Offline Noght

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 11:09:26 AM »
Everyone should probably ignore the normal rules of charging regarding Random movers. 

They have explicit rules to follow that differ from "normal" charging including: direction, range, no wheel, no declaration, and when to measure.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2013, 11:19:53 AM »
Your forgetting the last paragraph: "To make such a judgement (if charge is possible), you'll need to know how charge move is completed (see page 18)."

Again not applicable here. This refers to the calculation of the maximum charge range. But with the Random Mover, you already know that the enemy is within the maximum charge range.

Everyone should probably ignore the normal rules of charging regarding Random movers. 

They have explicit rules to follow that differ from "normal" charging including: direction, range, no wheel, no declaration, and when to measure.

I agree that Random Movers have explicit rules that differ from "normal charging" in as far as it concerns declaring a charge. However, once a charge has been established, the Random Movement rule expressis verbis   :icon_wink: says to resolve this "using the normal rules for charging". Again, most of the time, this will not make a practical difference, but in some cases, it may help to avoid failed charges.

@ LSP: no argument there.
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Offline The Ol Perfesser

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2013, 11:37:16 AM »
Thanks all for posting the relevant rules for random movers and charging. 
 :::cheers:::
Having re-read them now, I think at least my question is answered. 
I had never considered the possibility that a random mover could perform a wheel during its charge move, but I agree with Fidelis, the rules actually indicate such.  Useful to know...
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Closing the door with a steam tank
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2013, 12:03:25 PM »
Thanks Fidelis, this makes good sense.

I had an odd situation come up where an opponent was effectively using a screening unit to prevent me from getting a good line to charge with only the first free pivot and then the move distance. But I can definitely see that because the dice had allowed me to have charge range, the move is now treated as a normal charge as you described.

Thanks

Depends on what the situation actually was. Given the present wording, you must be able to make at least some contact with the enemy in a straight line. Only if you are able to do that, it can be considered a charge and then follow the normal rules for charging (with the 90 degree wheel to facilitate full contact/closing the door). However, when measuring that straight line, you would be able to pass within less than 1" of another enemy unit.
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