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Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« on: May 06, 2013, 02:55:37 PM »
Tactical Exposition Game 2:  Empire Griffon versus O&G 2500
Battle Thread


This Tactical Exposition Game (TEG) is a modification to our popular Tactical Decision Game (TDG).  In this game, forum members will be able to sit "table-side" to watch a forum member go up against one of my Griffon Formation lists.  The list that won is Rothgar and his Wild Boyz O&G list.   

We will have several running threads for this TEG:
          --A Dicelog Thread with all the rolls as they happen
          --A Battle Thread where all the tactical decisions are posted after they are made and where the results are posted for all to see
          --An Enemy General Thread where Rothgar can communicate with the forum , get advice, discuss strategy and tactics. 
             (I will not look at the Enemy General thread till the end).

After the battle is over, I will post my thoughts as the battle went along so you can see why I did what I did when I did it.

I also plan on deleting the intro thread and dicelog thread when they are no longer needed to keep the Tactica forum from getting too cluttered.

Noght will be the moderator, backed up by Fidelis on any rule issues.

Like we did for TEG1, artillery dice rolls will be accomplished by doubling a D6 and using a 6 as a misfire.  For the scatterdice, I will roll a D24 and use the following scale, with 24 always going to the top of the map (“true north”)






The Lists


The Good Guys: Winter Forge

10 Archers
       5 Archer Detachment
       5 Archer Detachment

42 Teutogen Guard (Greatswords)   FC
       Arch Lector (Gen) GW, AoMI, OTS
       Captain (BSB)  Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Ironcurse Icon
       Witch Hunter  Gold Sigil Sword, Dragonbane Gem, Ruby Ring
       19 Halb detachment

10 Archers Musician
       Battle Wizard Lord Lvl 4 Light Wizard, Dispel Scroll, Opal Amulet         
       Battle Wizard Lvl 1 Light Wizard, Forbidden Rod

5 Inner Circle Knights Musician, Banner of Swiftness

2x 5 ‘nilla Knights Musician

2x 6 Outriders  Sharpshooter w/Repeater Handgun
         
Steam Tank

My Spells:    Light-  Lvl 4: Shem’s Burning Gaze, Speed of Light, Banishment, Birona’s Timewarp   Lvl 1: Shem’s Burning Gaze


This is my current all-comer Half Griffon list I have been using.  I sent a draft copy of this list to Noght several weeks ago so no matter what the forum ended up with as an opponent it wouldn’t appear that I tweaked a list just for the TEG.

After the WoC came out, I stubbornly had to give up Heavens for Light.  I loved Harmonic Convergence and the nukes but HC’s effectiveness was reduced by an all high strength army and the nukes were iffy facing Regen & Ward save big nasties.  Light gives me flaming and non-flaming nukes and buffs that are good no matter the opponent.

Anyone following my BATREPs will also notice that I dropped the 15 Knight ICK block for 3 blocks, 2 ‘Nilla and 1 ICK.  When I only had 1 block, I was having issues with them getting diverted and outmaneuvered because my Archer diverters didn’t have the speed to keep up.  With 3 blocks I lose having another mobile hammer, but my tactical options are much better now.  These mobile units can go warmachine hunting, divert, and keep chaff away from my STank.

I have also been tinkering around with 2 units of 6 Outriders.  I like using them in pairs because it is too easy for my opponent to move around/mitigate one unit.  They can be used to support each other with fields of fire and even if one has to move- the other one should still be able to lay down a base of fire.  Since my recent opponents have been using the lame tactic of jamming my tank’s movement with diverters, the Outriders can also be coupled with the STank to keep its movement and firing lanes clear.

Last, I have added a Witch Hunter.  I like having another character in my main block because of the abundance of DPs, Vamp Lords, etc.  It gives me cheap MR2.  Also, facing Death or other wiz-hunting Lore, I can move him back to my Wiz bunker to babysit my Wizards (hats off to Rothgar on that trick).

As you will notice from the Dicelog, I rolled a 2,3,3,6 for spells.  I moved a double to Banishment and then dropped the other #3 for Shem’s Gaze.  The Lvl 1 also picked up Shem’s.


The Bad Guyz:  Wild Boyz

19 Black Orcs (FC, Banner of Eternal Flame)
       Orc Warboss Gen (Basha’s Axe, Armour of Destiny)

38 Savage Orcs  (FC, Big ‘Uns, AHWs)
       Savage Orc Big Boss BSB (GW, Mork’s War Banner)
       Savage Orc Great Shaman (Lvl 4 Big Waagh, Lucky Shrunken Head, Opal Amulet)

20 Night Goblins  (Shortbows, 2 Fanatics)
       Night Goblin Shaman (Lvl 1 Little Waagh, Dispel Scroll)

20 Night Goblins  (Shortbows, 2 Fanatics)

Goblin Big Boss #1  (Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Giant Wolf, LA, Shield)

Goblin Big Boss #2  (Shrieking Blade, Enchanged Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Giant Wolf, LA, Shield)

2x Mangler Squigs 

4x Goblin Spear Chukkas 

2x Doom Diver Catapult 

2x Goblin Rock Lobbers 

Rothgar Spells:    Big Waaagh-  Lvl 4: 1,3,4,5 pending Rothgar’s tweaks
                             Little Waaagh Lvl 1: 3 pending Rothgar’s tweaks


Here is what Rothgar stated about his list when he posted it: 

The goal here is to shoot down enemy chaff, let nasty units like Mangler Squigs and Fanatics work their magic, and then crash the party with a big block of vicious Savage Orcs led by a BSB that turns off the foe's magic items, and a Shaman that gives the whole block a 5+ Ward save. The Black Orcs act as troubleshooters, the Gobbo Big Bosses will be chaff and chaff hunters, and Doom Divers and Rock Lobbers deal with problematic targets.


The Terrain

I decided to go with a winter theme since my Middenheim boys are the “home team.”  I rolled for terrain via the BRB and placed them in random locations.

A normal hill (2” high) is in the NW and a normal building (2 stories) and wall are in the SW.  There is one Mysterious Forest in the NE and a Mysterious Lake in the SE.  An Altar of Khaine (units within 6 inches are Frenzied) is on top of the hill, as well as a Tower of Blood (3 stories, units within 6 inches have Hatred, Destruction gets Frenzy) in the middle of the board.

I put a road down the middle just for ascetics-  it has no effect on gameplay.

Should be a fun battlefield to play on.  I think the Tower gives Destruction a more favorable edge-  if it comes into play.   :unsure:






The Scenario

Meeting Engagement was rolled for the Scenario.  Rothgar won to choose the angle of the board and sides.

Here is a graph to help you see the deployment zone options:





-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Choices to Start:

This thread is going to be used to post all the action and for general comments about the battle/trash-talking.  Tactics discussions and recommendations to Rothgar should be made in the Wild Boyz thread (once I create it here in a few minutes).

What I need Rothgar and the forum to do now is to get on Rothgar’s Wild Boyz thread to discuss/decide what spells to choose and what angle/deployment zone you want to go with.

I also need Rothgar to appoint some trusted Lieutenants.  Either let him know you volunteer or he may pick some people he knows.  Noght and Fidelis are off limits due to being moderators.

Once you have decided, post in here letting me know all the above so then I can post the rolls for your units that are in reserve.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 03:16:41 PM »
OK, HHG - let's get this show on the road. I'll take the top half of the table, and the diagonal going from top left to bottom right. I will not be swapping any of my spells for the signatures, so my lineup is as follows:

Savage Orc Great Shaman:
1 - Brain Bursta
3 - The Hand of Gork
4 - 'Eadbutt
5 - 'Ere We Go!

Night Goblin Shaman:
3 - Itchy Nuisance

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 03:21:49 PM »
Roger.

I will post all the reserve rolls in the Dicelog thread, but the short version is:

the only units you have in reserve is one Spear Chukka and both Rock Lobbers

Let me know where you want to put the remaining units.  I will post a draft to get your tweaks/input and then I will post the final.
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 04:34:29 PM »
Both Lobbers? Well, at least I still have both Doom Divers. Let's get deployment started then (all units right as far forward as possible unless specified otherwise):

Savage Orc Big 'Uns - Horde formation, between the Hill and the Tower of Blood.
Night Goblin units - 5-wide, on either flank of the Savage Orc Big 'Un Horde. Make #1 the one on the left.
Spear Chukkas 1 & 2 - Between the Tower of Blood and the Mysterious Water, about 12" back of the line.
Spear Chukka 3 - On the leftmost corner of my deployment zone.
Mangler Squig 1 - To the left of the Tower of Blood.
Mangler Squig 2 - To the right of the Altar of Khaine.
Black Orcs - Right behind the hill on the top left.
Doom Divers - To the NW of the Mysterious Forest.
Goblin Big Boss 1 - To the right of the Tower of Blood.
Goblin Big Boss 2 - To the left of the Mysterious Water.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 04:46:44 PM by rothgar13 »

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 05:22:03 PM »
Rothgar:

I think this is what you are describing.  Give me any tweaks you have.

HHG



If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 06:02:15 PM »
Yeah, now that I see it on the table, I'll make a few tweaks. Move Spear Chukkas 2 and 3 back about 6-8", swap the positions of NG2 and MS2, put Chukka #1 on the leftmost corner of my deployment zone, and put Big Boss #2 where Chukka #1 used to be. Everything else looks great.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 06:06:55 PM by rothgar13 »

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 06:12:10 PM »
Okay, here it what it looks like:


« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 09:31:04 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 08:52:08 PM »
I think I screwed up when I said what edge of my deployment zone Chukka 1 should be. Can I get it to be next to the Blorcs instead? Also, can I get a position swap for NG2 and MS2? Thanks, and sorry for the inconvenience.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 09:32:01 PM »
Instead of posting another graph, I edited the post above. 

I put it on the board edge because of the hill.  I can put it on the hill too, but then it will mess up your Blorc movement.

Give me the thumbs up and we will move on.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 09:35:08 PM by Holy Hand Grenade »
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2013, 05:06:00 AM »
Thumbs up on that. I like it. Go ahead and deploy.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2013, 11:21:13 AM »
My ICK and Greatswords are in reserve.

My Wizards and the WH are in the Wiz Bunker.

No need to Vanguard.





Roll for first came up a:  1.  Rothgar, you get the first turn.

NG2 failed Animosity, roll a 6, We'll Show 'Em.

GBB1 (NW of tower) failed his Frenzy roll and re-roll.  He must charge.  NG1 made the Frenzy roll (it is just 16" from the front Archer in the Archer det).

Don't have time before work to update the Dicelog, but I will tonight.

Hopefully you can get some conversation going in the Wild Boyz thread on options...but if not, just post what you want to do for movement.  I will be back tonight from work and can post it.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2013, 11:33:42 AM »
I updated the graph to help you out. 

NG2 had to move towards the nearest enemy unit which is the STank/Outriders because it couldn't see the 'Nilla knights due to the hill.  It doesn't have to declare a charge because nothing is in range.




If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Noght

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2013, 11:35:43 AM »
Yikes, Greatswords off the board?  Ouch.  Looks fun boys.  May your LD rolls be low, failing that may your flees be high....
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 11:44:29 AM »
Yikes, Greatswords off the board?  Ouch.  Looks fun boys.  May your LD rolls be low, failing that may your flees be high....

Yeah, things are starting out a little rough for the home team.   :unsure:

Ulric needs to pull out some of his might!
HHG
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline Forumite

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2013, 01:13:37 PM »
HHG, the Goblin Big Bosses are also Fast Cavalry and can Vanguard if they want to.

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2013, 02:30:22 PM »
Yeah, my Big Bosses are indeed Fast Cav. I'd like to take those moves, if you don't mind.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2013, 09:05:14 PM »
Big bosses...all of them should wear captains hats!  :biggriin:

have fun guys...rothgar I would be rooting for you if it were anything but Empire those Greenskins might sack Averland again so they have to be stopped.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2013, 11:23:00 PM »
Yeah, my Big Bosses are indeed Fast Cav. I'd like to take those moves, if you don't mind.

Oops.  My bust.

Well....at this point what I am going to do is roll off for us on Vanguards.  I may want to adjust my Fast Cav based on what you do with yours.

The one request I do have:   is that as much as possible you move your fast cavalry with the mindset that you are not positive that you are getting the first turn.  It will make things fairer-  since we are going back in time and you know you are getting the first turn.  Unless, of course, you want to re-roll the Turn roll, but somehow I doubt you want that.   :wink:

Give me your feedback on what your opinion is on what we do with the Start of Turn rolls already made:

--Use all the rolls already made, unless it becomes moot (like the GBB moving out of Frenzy range)
--Re-roll all the starting Animosity & Frenzy rolls
--Last, but not least, make a Dicelog roll to completely randomize the decision:  1-3 stick with the rolls; 4-6 re-roll them

I don't really care that much honestly, as long as we reach some kind of compromise that is as fair as possible.

-------------------------------

Back to the game:  I just performed a roll-off and you won the toss.  Pick one GBB and tell me where you want to move him as accurately as you can.
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 12:30:56 AM »
All right, move the GBB on the right toward those Archers. No matter what happens, I have to try to keep them away from my Mangler, and force actual resources to be expended to get rid of him.

I think the rolls we've already made is the best way to go. Retconning everything is too much work if you ask me.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 12:52:42 AM »
I moved him forward as far as I could.   The Vanguard rules state he has to stay 12 inches away from any enemy units so he is 12.1 inches away from the Archers.

I slide the west Outriders over a 1/2 inch.

Where do you want the last GBB?  12.1 inches away from the other Archer det?


If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2013, 03:54:35 AM »
Yeah. There are no big blocks to divert (yet), so the Archers just moved up on the priority rankings.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2013, 05:22:11 AM »
I think we might finally be there.

Moved GBB1 up as far as he could go, shifted my last Outriders to face east, and executed the Start Turn moves.  Unless you tell me otherwise, we are ready to execute.





Few admin items to mention now:

--my Lvl 4 Wiz, WH, and Lvl1 are in that order starting from the east end inwards of the Wiz bunker. 

--Since you have the first turn and characters can move about during moves, just let me know where your characters end up at the end of movement.

--My WH is going to nominate Goblin Big Boss 1 of Heresy.

--NG1 is over 16 inches from the STank.  With a straight forward 8 inch move you will not be in range to launch the Fanatics.  The Archer det is exactly 16 inches away from NG1, but if you wheel to travel in that direction, you will not be able to get into launch range either.

--NG2 does not have to declare a charge due to its Animosity because nothing is within charge range.

--GBB1 & GBB2 do not have to make Frenzy tests since they Vanguarded and cannot charge now.

--I plan on deleting posts/cleaning up this thread once you are ready for movement with all our Vanguard talk and replace them with the final result so when people read this in the future it will flow much better

-------------------------------------------------

Give me your moves when you are ready.  I won't be able to post till Thursday night after work.  But if you have any questions on measurements, etc just let me know. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 11:20:01 AM by Holy Hand Grenade »
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 07:39:34 PM »
All right, HHG, here are my moves so far:

Charges: None.
Random Movement: Both Manglers will head straight toward the Steam Tank.
Remaining Moves:
Black Orcs will march toward Knight Unit 1.
GBB1 will march to be in front of one of the 5-man Archer detachments (as close as possible). GBB2 will do the same for the Archer detachment on the other side.
NG units will move 4" toward the nearest Outrider unit if they are more than 18" away from it; otherwise, they will stand still.
Savages will march forward as far as possible.
Rock Lobbers come on the board, behind the Doom Divers. Move them 4" forward.
Spear Chukka comes on the board, next to the Spear Chukka on the upper left corner. Move it 4" forward.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2013, 12:15:34 AM »
Alright brother, tell me what you think of this.

Mangler 1 got 10 inches.  He squirted the edge of the Tower and went forward.  In order to keep the west Arch det off the Mangler, I had to put GBB1 lengthwise in front of the Archers.  I put the GBB2 just under 3 inches away from GBB1 so no Archers could squeeze in between.

The net effect-  the archers can't make it going west, up the middle, or around the east.  If GBB1 is alive next turn and I don't move my Outriders, he has a Stand & Shoot-free charge into them.

Mangler Squiq 2 went a crazy 16 inches.  Due to the NGs moving in front of him and the Savages on the other side, he only had one direction he could go without hitting friendlies.

Blorcs marched forward, angling slightly to keep a possible Knight charge to the Chukka in its LOS.  I wasn't sure where you wanted the new Chukka (on the left or right) but I assumed behind the hill.  If the Blorcs move out of the way, the Chukka could still see and fire on the STank (I assume your primary target).  Just let me know if you want it somewhere different or you want to move the Blorcs a different way.

NG1 is under 18" away from the Outriders so I didn't move them like you asked.

Let me know if you want any tweaks.
HHG



If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

HHG's TDG/TEG Dice Tracker

Offline rothgar13

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Re: TEG2: Empire Griffon vs O&G 2500 Battle Thread
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2013, 02:43:29 AM »
It all looks good to me. Let's proceed to magic, then.