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Author Topic: Pandemonium Multi-PLog (Deadcember!)  (Read 138181 times)

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #450 on: January 13, 2016, 10:44:23 PM »
After trying a few other weapon & tail options. Also chopped down the boots and sculpted bare feet after someone on FB pointed out that the boots looked out of place. Not perfect, but good enough for a "rough draft." Going to try a quick paintjob on it & see how it looks. If I still think the idea has potential, I'll try doing a few with cleaner sculpting, more detail, etc.



If I do continue on, I *may* try making a mold for a few heads and tails, so I can convert a bunch of these without having to sculpt each individual. If I get *really* caught up in this, I may try finding some unarmored bodies. Maybe a robed one, too. ;)

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #451 on: January 14, 2016, 06:45:57 AM »


I've apparently had some sort of fire lit under me with this little side-quest. Started painting, not quite done but so far I'm really liking the way it's turning out. I can also see some of the things I'd like to do different next time, details to add, etc.



And a shot with some other large figures, plus my usual reference model, to give a sense of scale.




Offline King

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #452 on: January 14, 2016, 09:51:04 AM »
Very nice conversion although I am not a fan of the tail being so plain (though I understand its a prototype).  I can see that you like the concept of golden/ brass armour  :happy:  If you ever get to cast any of those fimir heads I would be interested in getting some too please.  Great work  :::cheers:::
We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust our sails....

Link to my blog http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=23114.0

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #453 on: January 14, 2016, 11:36:19 AM »
Excellent! :icon_biggrin: :icon_cool: :eusa_clap: :::cheers:::

Initially I questioned the tail, but that is only because most pictures if not all that I've seen of Fimir have a clunkier looking tail, but I'm good with what ya got.  This guy has a rounder one.  And he looks nasty McEvil enough for me.

Congrats on his look, and if I cold paint as good as that, then I'd be satisfied as is.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Doc J

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #454 on: January 14, 2016, 01:00:31 PM »
Those Fimir are on point, how many more are you going to make?
In the words of the late great Nicki Minaj - Ya done son

Offline Gankom

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #455 on: January 15, 2016, 01:31:44 AM »
I really like the skin color for some reason. Really fits with the marsh monster feel.

Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #456 on: January 15, 2016, 04:24:33 AM »
Some one was posting old Famir warriors on the Facebook Oldhammer tonight, in comparison the head and feet you have done look great.  The tail... not so much.

The color scheme is also very cool.  :::cheers:::
“Why is the rum always gone?” -Captain Jack Sparrow
"It is, it is a glorious thing To be a Pirate King."
 -Gilbert, Sir W(illiam) S(chwenck)

Offline Sixt

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #457 on: January 15, 2016, 04:40:59 AM »
Great use of the Reaper model.  I wouldn't have known it was a conversion after that paint job.  It all goes so well together.
My other plog, with more elves, dwarves, and ogres than Halflings at the moment - http://garagehammer.net/forum/index.php?topic=2629.0
The Halfling Horde - http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46992.0;nowap

Offline steveb

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #458 on: January 15, 2016, 05:06:57 AM »
fantastic job of conversion and painting, I may have to go back and redo my fimir.  steveb  p.s. the witch/queen Meargh says "welcome noble warrior"


Offline Shadespyre

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #459 on: January 15, 2016, 01:13:55 PM »
9 out of 10, I really like everything except the tail isn't quite right somehow... I think I'd go with smooth tails with added metal armaments, personally. The colours are spot on though.

Ditto the request for cast parts - if you made heads, feet and tails I'd buy enough to convert up a dozen of those guys myself!

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #460 on: January 15, 2016, 03:47:36 PM »
Thanks for the comments everyone.

I agree completely in regard to the tail. Although I did try a few different tails (and weapons) I didn't spend nearly as much time on any of them as I should. If I continue on I will definitely do better. I was in a hurry to see a painted figure with the general shape so I could get an idea if I would like what could be done.

I *do* like where it is going. Now I have to decide on how big of a project I should let this become. ;) If it's more than a few figures, I think it would make sense to try casting some heads & tails. Possibly weapons, too. And maybe feet, too. But that's a bit trickier since they are particular to each figure and I would need  to figure how to replace the existing ones efficiently (so that it's less work that just sculpting feet on each figure individually.) But converting the figures involves more than the sculpted bits. I have to drill, cut, shape, clean, etc. each original figure, and then there is a it of filling/sculpting at the joints of the new bits to get them to look right. That gets me wondering if it would be worth trying my hand at just finishing the job and sculpting my own bodies & arms so that it all fits better to begin with, and eliminates a lot of the chopping up of existing figures. And if I do that, should I just go back to the drawing board entirely and come up with something more original. I don't want to invest a bunch of my time copying someone else's designs. Once my thoughts have come around to this point I'm starting to wonder what I've got myself into and should I just stick with a couple of figures and forget the rest before I let it get out of hand. ;)

As far as requests for making cast bits available to others, that really depends on how far I go (if I go anywhere at all) in regard to the above and what sort of moral & legal grey areas I wander into.

Also, I've only done resin casting with someone else guiding me through the process, and although I have most of the equipment, I still need to put together my pressure tank. For that matter, my sculpting isn't quite expert level either. I love the idea of expanding & improving my limited skills, but there are a lot of questions about how well I could pull any of this off. Converting one figure is one thing, but building an army based on a lot of sculpting & casting is another.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 03:53:29 PM by ZeroTwentythree »

Offline steveb

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #461 on: January 15, 2016, 07:24:26 PM »
just wanted to interject on the tail matter, the old warrior nobles hade very weapon like tails, as opposed to the knobby mace like tails of ordinary fimir, the shape on this old warrior of mine almost mimics the style of the weapons on your conversions, maybe something like in this picture would work for you?  nice job again.  steveb


Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #462 on: January 19, 2016, 04:37:15 PM »
Thanks for the pic, that helps a lot. I've seen that one in the old catalog scans, but the quality & angle aren't anywhere as good as this pic! And I do like that tail, both for the spikey blade tip, and I've got a good idea for a better cross-section now.

Started working on some new heads. A couple seem OK, a few others might only be good enough for practice.



I might just go ahead and sculpt a bunch after all, instead of casting. I would still love to try casting, but that involves some of practical problems that I'm not sure how to overcome. Besides, I think still need more sculpting practice before I've got some good enough bits to make it worth the work to cast anyway. On the other hand, I would love to be able to make castings, then clean those up further, maybe sculpt some variants, and then use those for final casts. Does anyone with resin experience know if I can get good quality casts for heads and tails like this without using a pressure tank? While I would love to use it, the tank is what presents the most problems at the moment.

I should probably start thinking about getting some more orc bodies.

In addition to the orcs, I might check out this ogre body, also sculpted by Tre Manor. Hopefully it's a similar size. http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones%20ogre/latest/77105


Offline Shadespyre

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #463 on: January 19, 2016, 07:02:35 PM »
I don't work in resin (I've done a bit of metal casting) but my friend does. He certainly uses a pressure pot, but then he is making very large models (by Warhammer standards) and the material cost of making a bad mold or casting a bad figure is very high, and the work to repair a bad figure takes ages. But even his good casts still need a lot of clean-up work, so using a pressure pot isn't a guarantee for success. I know that what resin you use is a factor - viscosity, setting time, how much you have to stir it, that sort of thing. For smaller jobs, like the bases on my Vampire Counts army, which are small, cheap and easy to hide / correct blemishes on, he doesn't bother.

I suggest you give it a whirl without the pressure pot. If you can't make anything usable, then you've learnt something, if you get a 10-20% reject rate how much does it matter? If it's much quicker than sculpting each from scratch, that's probably all that counts?

Looks like the tail on the Fimir Noble has more a triangular cross section than a round one?

Offline King

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #464 on: January 19, 2016, 09:04:51 PM »
023 I have that ogre miniature from Tre Manor myself.  Its an awesome sculpt.  With regards to size, it is just a tiny bit larger than the GW ogre bulls.  I hope this helps.
We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust our sails....

Link to my blog http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=23114.0

Offline Sixt

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #465 on: January 19, 2016, 10:27:47 PM »
I have moved on to using a pressuure pot, but I started without it.  For less mess, i really recommend a drop mold style.  I found that 2 sided molds often resulted in a mess. 

So for the drop molds, you will build up your frame(or use a dixie cup) and fix you originals to the bottom.  I make sure that there is a bit of room between the bottom and the original as it easier to remove the overflow from the channel part of the cast vs right up against the piece you wanted to cast.

After mixing the silicone, you might take an old brush or a stick and drip a few drops onto the originals in the mold.  This should prevent some bubbles from forming around them when pouring the bulk of the silicone.

For pouring the resin, you can find syringes at places like TAP Plastics, but you can also find flavor injectors like this :
http://m.target.com/p/room-essentials-flavor-injector/-/A-14242414

I cut off the tip to give it a point and it fits perfectly down the channels, which should also minimize bubbles.

For silicone, i prefer TAP's clear vs Oomoo.  It's more forgiving by far, which helps for massaging bubbles out. Being clear, you can also see if there are bubbles in the first place when help up to the light.

For Resin, any would work.  20min work times are super helpful if you find any errors while pouring or need to clean up any spills.

Anyways, hope this helps and is clear.  Also, i cant stress this enough, wear disposable gloves and clothes you dont care about when casting!
My other plog, with more elves, dwarves, and ogres than Halflings at the moment - http://garagehammer.net/forum/index.php?topic=2629.0
The Halfling Horde - http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46992.0;nowap

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #466 on: January 20, 2016, 03:11:39 AM »
I suggest you give it a whirl without the pressure pot. If you can't make anything usable, then you've learnt something, if you get a 10-20% reject rate how much does it matter? If it's much quicker than sculpting each from scratch, that's probably all that counts?

Looks like the tail on the Fimir Noble has more a triangular cross section than a round one?

I figure it's probably worth the learning experience too, so I may give it a shot.

Yes, just started trying to work up the base for a couple of tails with triangular cross sections. Also trying a spiked club tail. Going to be tedious sculpting all the little knobs/studs. I'm wondering if I could get away with converting some morning star or mace heads from other figures....


023 I have that ogre miniature from Tre Manor myself.  Its an awesome sculpt.  With regards to size, it is just a tiny bit larger than the GW ogre bulls.  I hope this helps.

Yes. Might be a bit bigger than I'd like, but for the price I may as well get one. If I don't like it for a Fomorian (maybe a large hero?) I can find another use for it.

I think this is where Reaper is really doing something right. I keep finding myself saying, "sure, at that price, why not buy more!"


I have moved on to using a pressuure pot, but I started without it.  For less mess, i really recommend a drop mold style.  I found that 2 sided molds often resulted in a mess.

I've only got experience with doing one single piece drop mold in a plastic cup, never tried 2-piece at all. Not sure how to do that with tiny heads, though. Each one in it's own small cup/mold? I had originally been thinking about putting 4-6 on a sprue -- but that would require a 2-piece mold, right?

For silicone, i prefer TAP's clear vs Oomoo.  It's more forgiving by far, which helps for massaging bubbles out. Being clear, you can also see if there are bubbles in the first place when help up to the light.

For Resin, any would work.  20min work times are super helpful if you find any errors while pouring or need to clean up any spills.

Anyways, hope this helps and is clear.  Also, i cant stress this enough, wear disposable gloves and clothes you dont care about when casting!

Yes, that should all be helpful advice. Thank you! I just looked at the Smooth-On starter kit I have. It's got Oomoo 30 silicone and Smooth-Cast 300 resin, plus some sealer and mold release in spray bottles. Unfortunately, it's been sitting around for over a year. I'm not sure what kind of shelf life any of this has. But I will give it a shot anyway.

I may have to wait for the weather to warm up. Even with my radiator running all day, my attic is almost 20° below the recommended working temp according to the specs. (I paint and sculpt with a hat & hoodie on -- my user pic is me painting at my work table!)


A question about the syringes/injectors -- is there a way to clean them, or are they one use only?

Offline Sixt

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #467 on: January 20, 2016, 07:24:12 AM »
I'll do my best to reply in line, but I'm on mobile, so quoting is difficult.

Re: 2 or more pieces in a drop mold.

When i mentioned a 2pc mold, i meant where it was cut down the middle and you have to press the 2 halves together to get a seal.  Casting removal is easier and you can do a lot with venting to get better poses.  The TAP silicone is pretty flexible, so with a few cuts and the structure supported by another dixie cup (cut to fit the mold and bottom removed) you can achieve a similar result.  Though cutting the mold tends to wear it faster, especially the harder Oomoo.

For multiple pieces in a drop mold, channels at the top help control placement.  I use old sprue and plastic rod to attach the pieces i want to cast.  Make sure there is space between each piece.  The thinner the silicone, the faster it will deteriorate. 

Here is the next set I plan to cast next to an Oomoo mold (purple) and a tap mold, both using a drop mold via a dixie cup:



The channels really help cut down mess and provide extra material to fill in where there might be space taken by air (helpful with the pressure pot).

Re: shelf life

The Oomoo i had went bad after about a year, but I was dumb and stored it in a location where it got direct sunlight.  The resun can have the same problem, but it seems to be a bit more forgiving.

Re: syringes/injectors

I get quite a few uses out of my syringes and the injector.  I prefer the syringes due to the smaller needle, but it makes it harder to clean.  First, you need to clean it before the Rsein hardens.  The silicone (if you use it for that) is far easier to clean as it just peels off.  I use a strong paper towel to clean the main part.  The key is keeping the holes clean.  Small plastic rod or wire run through the needle will get a lot of it out.  I used to use water, but 1) it gets resin particles all over your sink and 2) it doesnt always remove everything. 

The plunger will often have a rubber bottom.  Keep that clean too as it will harden and render the injector useless.
My other plog, with more elves, dwarves, and ogres than Halflings at the moment - http://garagehammer.net/forum/index.php?topic=2629.0
The Halfling Horde - http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46992.0;nowap

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #468 on: January 20, 2016, 03:49:37 PM »
I'm not sure I understand 100%. Are you pulling those complex shaped castings up through narrow openings at the top of the one piece drop molds?

For example, in my 60 second rough image below, if I create a mold with the heads pointed nose-down when pouring, and add a cone shaped sprue/gate/whatever for pouring the resin into the mold, will I be able to pull the head straight up through the narrow point where the sprue connects to the sculpted head? How do you grab them to pull them out?



I guess I don't have a good feel for how flexible the molds are yet, how much can be pulled through them without tearing them up, etc. I think I've got a better understanding of how two-piece molds work with sculpts like this and like yours above. But most of the one-piece molds I've seen have the widest part at the top opening, or are essentially flat bottomed pieces like terrain, etc. where the opening (where you pour) is as wide as the sculpt and doesn't matter. (Sort of like in the demo videos at the Smooth-On web site.)

Thanks again for you advice!  :::cheers:::

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #469 on: January 23, 2016, 05:50:17 AM »
Fomorian Conversion Bits

The practical issue I am still stuck on is where to cast. My attic and basement are both cold until spring. The attic has very poor ventilation, and the furnace in the basement draws in air to blow into the rest of the house. So both of those areas seem to be impractical for both temperature and ventilation reasons.

So I'm worried that this little project might be stalled. If I can't manage any casting, I may just scale down to a few figures using all one-off sculpted bits. The heads & feet aren't too difficult, and it will give me extra practice to built my humble sculpting skills. And build character. And patience. ;)



BOOM!



Finished the light gun I got from DeafNala, and its two dwarf crew. Not the best pic, but the only one of about a dozen that was even decent. I'll get a good group photo when I finish the last of the light/swivel guns.



Remote Gaming... as a Neutral GM?

I couldn't sleep last night, and in my tossing & turning my mind started wandering into the idea of remote gaming again. I have a new idea I may like to try out. Instead of me vs. an opponent, I'm thinking about running a game with me as a GM, and two or more people acting as generals. Either one general per side giving orders for multiple commands, or multiple generals per side, each with their own individual command. Sticking with my original plan (for now) of using a fantasy mod. of Hail Caesar, it would work something like this:

1. Orders. Generals all privately email me orders for all of their units/brigades, in the order of importance (which goes first.)

2. Moves. Simultaneous. I will make all of the command roles and move the units per the generals' instructions.

2.b. Wonky simultaneous movement thing. If a unit approaches/ends within 1" (or maybe 2"?) and a charge wasn't declared AND the unit(s) would be in a situation where they could otherwise charge (haven't maxed out on movement, didn't blow any leadership tests, are a troop type able to declare a charge against the target, etc.) then I will contact the relevant general(s) and ask if they would like to attempt a "last minute charge" or hold. They would have to pass a second leadership test (at a penalty?) to pull off the charge.

3. Shooting, Combat, etc. I think most of the rest could be handled pretty normally. I would ask each general to name their targets for any shooting or melee attacks. Then I would roll the dice and give the results. Fleeing/routing/etc. units could get a little messy, but as a third party I could sort that out.

I would try to leave as much decision making up to the generals for anything else that came up. I would be the figure mover, dice roller, and write the narrative of the action. As a remote third party GM, I could also increase the "fog of war" element by keeping players blind to some things, like hidden movement, secret objectives, unexpected events, and other surprises. I could also keep players blind to the particulars of their opponents armies. So you might know what you see from the pics and description, but not exact stats.  :evil:

Visuals would be handled publicly online. Probably at my website/blog. (Maybe some highlights posted in the forum.) At the start of each turn, both players would get an overhead shot of the battlefield, with some measuring sticks for reference so they could get a general idea of distance. I would also post some photos or video of some of the battlefield from different angles, along with a text narrative, to help set the stage.



I'm thinking about putting together a small test game to try this idea out. Maybe just one player per side for this one. If successful, I could even try a mini-campaign, with a few linked battles, each determined by the results of the previous battle(s) and post-game decisions (regarding options presented to them) made by the players. But I shouldn't get too carried away.

Not sure how much interest there would be in something like this. (I know at least one person.) I only need a few volunteers, and although a basic knowledge of the HC rules would be beneficial, I could/would give a basic rundown of how things work. The important thing (for players) would simply be good general decision making & issuing of orders based on common sense wargaming concepts... hit enemies in the flanks, keep heavy units out of bad terrain, heavy knights are probably going to be able to beat sickly goblins armed with dull twigs, etc.


REMINDER



This was in the window of my daughter's daycare classroom today. These are usually things they've been learning about, that you can bring up on your drive home. I don't know if I can answer this one. It's like a reminder of what I'm giving up for my hobby.

Offline steveb

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #470 on: January 23, 2016, 05:18:41 PM »
amen!  steveb

Offline Gankom

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #471 on: January 23, 2016, 06:02:13 PM »
I don't know hail Cesar at all but I like the sounds of that idea. It kind of like the battles that Holy Hand grenade ran in the tactics section.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #472 on: January 23, 2016, 08:17:34 PM »
I'd love to give the game a try, yet I've got much on my plate, and it is best I maintain my focus for the moment.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline King

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #473 on: January 23, 2016, 09:55:57 PM »
I am in if you are looking for volunteers :)
We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust our sails....

Link to my blog http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=23114.0

Offline Shadespyre

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Re: Pandemonium Multi-PLog
« Reply #474 on: January 24, 2016, 11:10:47 AM »
I quite like the idea of playing a wargame without knowing all the rules and stats, it becomes more like a role-playing game and less like chess.