Topic: Army List Percentages

[Waywatcher]

When making an army list, are the percentages based off of the 'agreed points total' or your actual army list total points?

An example: in a "2000 point" game, army list grand total is 1997 for whatever reason. Would two Steam Tanks be legal in such a list? At 500 points, this is technically over 25% of your points (500/1997= 25.04%.) Reading the rules, this seems like it would be illegal.

I didn't see any exception or clarification in the book, but I could have missed it.

[Jomppexx]

'agreed points total'

Therefore I would believe you count the 25% percentage from the agreed total amount of points.
This is an interesting point actually, but this is how I think it works. 

[The Ol Perfesser]

... you count the 25% percentage from the agreed total amount of points.

Correct

[Waywatcher]

So then would 499 points of Core in a 1996 point total army be illegal? (499/1996=25.00%)

BRB, page 134:

"Core Units
You must spend a minimum of 25% of your points on core units."

[Noght]

Posts 1&3 are correct. Legal and illegal.

[Waywatcher]

Posts 1&3 are correct. Legal and illegal.

Reply #3 was a question. Since 499/1996=25.00%, this would appear to be legal. Why do you say it isn't?

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

What Jomppexx says. Therefore, you need to calculate the 25% from 2.000 points, and technically 499 is below the 25% minimum needed for Core. In a friendly game, I doubt, if anyone would object, if asked.

[wilsonthenarc]

The "Army Builder" software is my bible on stuff like this.
They base all rules off of your agreed upon points totals.
i.e. 499 points of core in a 2000 pt list that is actually 1997 points is illegal.
i.e. 500 points of rare in a 2000 pt list that is actually 1997 points is legal.

Whether or not you reach 2000 points is secondary, and almost irrelevant.
I think a legal 2000 point army could be:
General @ 230 points (arbitrary #)
500+ points of core, call it 525... for 755 points total (of 2000).
Not that it is GOOD, just that it is legal per the strictest sense of the rules.
You have met all minimum rules.

[Waywatcher]

What Jomppexx says. Therefore, you need to calculate the 25% from 2.000 points, and technically 499 is below the 25% minimum needed for Core. In a friendly game, I doubt, if anyone would object, if asked.

BRB never says so that I could find. It says

BRB, page 134:
"Core Units
You must spend a minimum of 25% of your points on core units."

If a player only spent 1996 points, and he has 499 in core, he has indeed spent 25% of his points on core units.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

As I keep saying, one must read the rules in full and in context. The context is here page 133 and 134. Read in context, "your points" refers to "the total points value that determines the maximum points you can spend on your army."

Is your interpretation impossible? No. Is it improbable? Yes. However, as I said before, in a friendly game, few will object - provided you ask them (as a matter of common courtesy). In a Tournament, that might be more problematic. And you must be consistent: you cannot use 2 Steam Tanks, because 500 is 25% of 2.000, and then use 499 as core, because it is 25% of 1.999.

[Waywatcher]

I agree about consistency. Reading the rules on pages 133-134 I could find nothing about basing the percentages on the 'agreed points.'

I think an army that totals 1996 points would be legal with 499 in Core, but not with 500 in Rare.

That's what reading the rules seems to indicate to me, at least.

[The Ol Perfesser]

If your agreed upon army size is 2000 points then you must have at least 500 points worth of core troops.  Simple as that. 
It doesn't matter if your actual total doesn't reach 2000.
 
I would argue further, that one point of difference can actually be significant.  Even in friendly games I would expect to see the minimum core values satisfied.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

There is a practical argument against Waywatcher's interpretation. You start your army list with two Steam Tanks; when you finish your list, it turns out you only have 1998 points. Not enough for 2 ST. Oeps - you can start the list again. Having replaced one Steam Tank, you end up with 1997 points. Oeps, now you have too many Lords. Redo the list again: now you have 1999. Oeps, now you don't have the minimum core again. 
Building a (legal) Army List is already difficult enough, without introducing an unnecessary random element.

[Waywatcher]

If your agreed upon army size is 2000 points then you must have at least 500 points worth of core troops.  Simple as that. 
It doesn't matter if your actual total doesn't reach 2000.
 
I would argue further, that one point of difference can actually be significant.  Even in friendly games I would expect to see the minimum core values satisfied.

Okay... But the rules never say to base the percentages off the agreed points total.

If an army ends with 1996 points and has 499 points in core, it has met the minimum requirements according to the rules on page 134 (it's in bold in the BRB):

BRB, page 134:
"Core Units
You must spend a minimum of 25% of your points on core units."

If a player only spent 1996 points, and he has 499 in core, he has indeed spent 25% of his points on core units.

[The Ol Perfesser]

BRB, page 134:
"Core Units
You must spend a minimum of 25% of your points on core units."

Exactly.  You agree upon a points total before you begin spending points.  You must spend at least 25% of your previously agreed upon total for core troops.

Setting the total amount comes first.  Spending comes second.  You do not spend first and then see what your total is and determine whether percentages match with what you have already spent.

[Waywatcher]

BRB, page 134:
"Core Units
You must spend a minimum of 25% of your points on core units."

Exactly.  You agree upon a points total before you begin spending points.  You must spend at least 25% of your previously agreed upon total for core troops.

Setting the total amount comes first.  Spending comes second.  You do not spend first and then see what your total is and determine whether percentages match with what you have already spent.

When you start adding words to the rules you may alter their meaning to suit your ends.

This discussion, and reading of the actual written rules has me almost positive now that a list totaling 1996 points with 499 in core is legal. Like Fidelis mentioned, there is a practical argument against this interpretation, but this example (499/1996) clearly satisfies actual rules that are written in the BRB. Likewise, a list totaling 1996 with 500 in rare would be technically illegal, as the player has spent more than 25% of his points in rare.

Really, this is like having list with a BSB having the highest Ld in the army (e.g. Thane BSB/ Runesmith list). Neither of these situations result in a 'broken' army so in real life I would let it slide.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

It is not like having list with a BSB having the highest Ld in the army, because those rules, read in full and in context, still leave no other option. A better comparison would be "the first round of combat", and, just like in that discussion, your interpretation, while not completely impossible, is made highly improbable, when the rules are read in full and in context.