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Author Topic: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....  (Read 9844 times)

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2014, 02:26:47 AM »
Magic Items:

What should your magic items do? A few things, every single item you buy should fall under at least one of these criteria, and also make sure that WHAT they do is worth how much they cost: 1) Grant a benefit to the unit they are in 2) Help keep a character alive 3) Support the whole army 4) Help a character do more damage

Now theres a few things to keep in mind: Weapons, armor, and talismans all cost the same price no matter whether they are on a model with 5 wounds and 6 attacks, or on a model with 2 wounds and 1 attack. So there are many very bad ways to kit out your characters, either with too many items that cost too much for what they do, or too few items to make the character worth his cost overall.

Magic Weapons: In general, you don’t need these. Empire characters are not going to be blender lords, chaos heroes or orc warbosses. Magic weapons cost too much for helping too little, usually we will not want to take these. What are the exceptions? Well the grand master could take an Ogre blade to be pretty killy, and that weapon is probably the best magic weapon for its cost. Don’t bother with the giant blade, and don’t bother with the runefang or the swords that grant extra attacks. Other weapons could be the sword of anti heroes as some armies may bring tons of characters. So thats nice. But pretty much all of our characters should avoid taking magic weapons.

Magic Armor: Do not take expensive magic armor on any character that can get a 2+ or 1+ all by themselves. So this means the grand master, general, and captain can take full plate, and barded steeds to get their 2+. On foot, you can build a few characters to have nice armor, like with the enchanted shield, dragonhelm, and skavenhelm. All warrior priests and captains should at least get 3+ armor saves. If your general is an arch lector then HE is the guy who should be given the Armor of Meotoric Iron, its awesome, and its all you need in the way of armor. Any one who is mounted can get a nice armor save by other means. The charmed shield is nice for any flying character (griffin or pegasus) to block that first turn cannonball shot thats headed his way.

Magic Talismans: A few viable choices here, first your level 4 can be given the talisman of preservation to give him protection and help keep him alive, but its not always necessary.A character should probably carry the ironcurse icon as well since it can help you survive warmachines for super cheap. Magic resistance is a nice thing to give to a unit, but don’t get more than MR2. MR2 on a warrior priest would be nice, it can protect your big blocks against curse of years and a few other nuke spells that you really don’t want going off.

Enchanted items: What are the good ones that are worth taking? Well, Crown of command is probably the best one. Why? Because making a unit stubborn is unbelievable. Take this on a foot arch lector in a unit of halberdiers with two detachments and you can easily get a block of 100 guys who will all be stubborn. Pretty sweet. What else? Ruby ring on a warrior priest is kind of funny since you can get a killing blow fireball. So thats nice. Also, van horstmans speculum is amazing at helping us deal with uber killy characters or monster-characters out there. All you have to do is challenge the guy and you swap all the stats. Ideally you take this on your wizard lord so that the enemy only gets 1 attack at S3 which massively limits how much damage he can do against you. The ring of volans would be very good if it wasn’t one use only. I think the best thing to use it for is to get one use only wyssan’s wildform that you can roll 6 dice at to attempt to miscast since there will be no backlash, but i dont think its that great. Other than those ones, they aren’t really worth taking.

Arcane items: A few good choices here, they are unique as only wizards can carry them. First off, DISPEL SCROLL!!!!!!! it is an absolute must, stopping that one spell at that one worst possible moment has won many games for every veteran player. Use it, in fact, I could write a whole paragraph about simply HOW to use the scroll. So take one and use it when you first get hit with a really nasty spell, hopefully not until turn 3. The other ones are mostly too expensive for what they do, but the power stone is nice on your lvl 4 guy to help him power through that one spell in a crucial turn. Just dont go buying your level 4 the 70 pt item that gives you +1 to cast and dispel. Thats way too many points, no one buys that. So yeah, just take the dispel scroll.

Magic banners: These are very important. Its sad that we can’t take magic banners on regular knights, flagellants, huntsmen, or the main state troops because thatd be very helpful. The magic banners worth taking are as follows: Razor banner on a unit of greatswords or knights is very cool and helps them really chop through stuff. The steel standard helps a knight unit make its charges, so its worth it to ensure that good charge. The banner of eternal flame is good, but it’d be best on a unit of huntsmen (who can’t take it) so i don’t know who you would give it to, perhaps a unit of knights or you could give it to your BSB and put him in any unit that you want to have flaming attacks. Also, standard of discipline on a unit that has your general in it gives his inspiring presence rule +1 LD so that means any LD9 general in a unit with it makes him LD10. Really good. Only limited by which units can take these banners. Also, Gleaming pennant is good for a knight or demigryph unit that will be on the flanks of your army outside of the general and BSB range to help them hold the line. I would not recommend taking the griffin banner as you can pretty much only put it on your bsb and also you will usually not have enough ranks for it to matter. And combat res isnt worth that much. So just stick to the ones i laid out first.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2014, 02:51:03 AM »
Deployment:

Deployment is perhaps the second most impactful phase of the battle (only after army list creation) so deploying correctly could save you or could spell your doom. So I will share my wisdom on deployment. Since we don’t have an easy way to get cheap “dead drops” (units we dont care about that we only take to stall the enemy’s deployment) we will have to deploy our army at the same time as our enemy’s. So the order in which you deploy your units is utterly important.

 Personally, I like to lay down my infantry hordes first. If your army centers around a center of infantry, then place that unit down first, basically in the middle of your deployment zone, and not all the way up at the line (leave like 2 inches of space in front of the unit). Remember detachments have to deploy it at the same time as the parent. After the main block goes down, wizard wagons are an obvious next drop because they are pretty much needed to always be nearby the main block of troops. If you are using two big blocks of troops then you want them both supported by both wagons at the same time, so deploy them beside each other to support each other.

Next, start deploying knights and demigryphs on your flanks. Leave space for other units to go down, though. You want to deploy war machines and shooting units absolutely last because they need good fields of fire and they need to be away from very fast and threatening units. Pistoliers and outriders should be on the flanks with a clear space for them to vanguard forward (if you want to). Handgunners and crossbowmen should likely be on the flanks and near the artillery so that you can fire at enemy fast cav and chaff who will be coming after you. Steam tanks also should ALWAYS be put on a flank, as in the center of your lines they are prone to breaking down and causing a traffic jam. Make sure the tank has other units nearby or it can get taken out easily. Our flank units work well together, so use them together.

Cannons should be deployed all the way in the far corners of your deployment zone, as they have really long range and can pretty much shoot over almost anything. The HBVG needs to be far far forward, the range is its biggest limiting factor. Make sure to place the master engineer next to it. Also, this thing should be more central in your army, don’t go putting it very far back and on a hill or something as you will not get many shots off and will often be just as easily die from fast units. Mortars and helstorms don’t matter, put them anywhere. Archers should be deployed in the center of your force in front of your combat blocks, they will screen the army, and chaff the enemy. Huntsmen are deployed last (as scouts) and should honestly be placed somewhere different each time, you want them to be a road block, putting them in woods is a good idea, and also the best thing they do is keep things from vanguarding towards you (things cannot vanguard to be within 12” of an enemy) and also perhaps going after enemy war machines and fast cav.

Offline PeytonS

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2014, 04:18:20 AM »
First off let me say that creating a tactica thread trying to work out how to use the army is a great step foward from whining about the book endlessly!   :icon_smile:  Good for you!

Just a couple thoughts on your magic items/deployment tactica:
1.  Runefang on the TGM is very good, in fact it's in a lot of competetive builds these days. 
2.  There's no reason not to take MR3 other than you being short on points or already having a 4+ ward on whatever you're protecting.  A 4+ ward vs spells like searing doom on knights or big damage spells on other units is much better than a 5+, and will make your characters last a lot longer against death snipes.
3.  Im surprised you don't mention Scroll of Shielding.  It's a great way to conserve dispel dice for a turn by letting a spell through and halving the damage, and if you combine it with magic resistance you come pretty close to ignoring the spell's damage. 

Deployment:
I'd just be wary of making blanket statements regarding how to deploy units, as it varies depending on what is in your list and what's in your opponent's (not to mention terrain).  For example:

1.  I run a unit of 5 demigryphs.  I don't ever deploy them on the flanks, as they're one of my heavy combat "blocks," and since they're a pretty pricey unit I don't want them running off because they weren't near my BSB or general.

2.  Deploying a steam tank on the flanks opens it up to getting locked by chaff, and makes it vulnerable to death snipes.

3.  I find that it's much better to protect your cannons by deploying them behind your lines.  They can still see their targets if you leave lanes open, and are less vulnerable to fast cav or war machine hunters.  If you deploy your cannon in the corner a unit of flyers or fast cav can easily reach it by turn two, kill it and then get back in the game.  Deploying centrally also lets you protect cannons from enemy war machines with bubble Pha's Protection or being able to magic missile the WM hunters, and lets you protect it with your helblaster if you use one. 


Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2014, 04:46:35 AM »
I dont have much experience with the TGM with runefang, Hes cheap for what he does but I just think that giving him ogre blade isnt THAT much worse and its like half the cost of the runefang.

The MR3 token thing is amazing on a deathstar/character bus unit to protect people. I wish that the MR worked vs dwellers, final trans, and purple sun... but it doesnt.

Scroll of shielding, i have never used, i guess you can use it? I just think that new players need to be wary how much random stuff they buy and often people buy too many items and waste points.

Deployment is a little hard to pin down, i agree, since a lot of variables go into the mix. I think there are many ways to deploy HORRIBLY and I was trying to address some of the very blatantly bad mistakes some players make with a simple "guideline" for deploying, until people get the hang of it. So its not as rock hard as "you need to take a dispel scroll" but it is still a decent guideline to follow if you have no idea how to deploy.

Personally a unit of 5 demis is a little unwieldy, what i have seen happen to a unit like that is that it can take on pretty much anything BUT the enemy deathstar. Most enemy deathstar units can wreck demis really fast or break them from combat, which is why i think they work best on the flanks as heavy flankers and shock troops.

Offline PeytonS

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2014, 05:31:00 AM »
I dont have much experience with the TGM with runefang, Hes cheap for what he does but I just think that giving him ogre blade isnt THAT much worse and its like half the cost of the runefang.

The MR3 token thing is amazing on a deathstar/character bus unit to protect people. I wish that the MR worked vs dwellers, final trans, and purple sun... but it doesnt.

Scroll of shielding, i have never used, i guess you can use it? I just think that new players need to be wary how much random stuff they buy and often people buy too many items and waste points.

Deployment is a little hard to pin down, i agree, since a lot of variables go into the mix. I think there are many ways to deploy HORRIBLY and I was trying to address some of the very blatantly bad mistakes some players make with a simple "guideline" for deploying, until people get the hang of it. So its not as rock hard as "you need to take a dispel scroll" but it is still a decent guideline to follow if you have no idea how to deploy.

Personally a unit of 5 demis is a little unwieldy, what i have seen happen to a unit like that is that it can take on pretty much anything BUT the enemy deathstar. Most enemy deathstar units can wreck demis really fast or break them from combat, which is why i think they work best on the flanks as heavy flankers and shock troops.

1.  Against rank and file with weak saves I'd agree, but then if that's all you're using him for you may as well just use a great weapon for much cheaper.  The Runefang is hands down worth the extra points against other units as it takes rolling to wound and armour saves completely out of the equation.  Again, I think the fact that you see it in a lot of competetive lists speaks for itself. 

2.  The SOS is only 15 points, not random at all, and well worth it if you have two arcane slots.  I think it could be even more useful for new players who haven't nailed down how to use their dispel dice effectively.  Combined with magic resistance it can save character busses or a big unit that's about to take a lot of hits. 

3.  One might categorize leaving steam tanks and cannons out on the flanks to be chaffed or death sniped as deploying horribly :icon_wink:.  As I said, I wouldn't recommend this strategy unless you're playing someone who doesn't have chaff and/or death magic.  Cannons are safer behind your lines and steam tanks are great at locking units in place so you can hit them with your combat blocks, which is hard to do if it's trundling up a flank.  I'm not saying this is the only way to deploy them, but it's definitely something you need to keep in mind when deploying. 

4.  5 demis is only 2" wider than an infantry horde, so if you can use hordes effectively you should have no trouble with manuevering them.  As you say they can take on pretty much anything but a deathstar (and with the right buffs can even beat some of them), which isn't something our hordes can reliably do.  The extra wounds you get over using three demis really helps with grinding out opposing units and keeping your number of attacks high, where a few unlucky wounds on a small unit of demis can severely hamper their usefulness.   

Offline Calisson

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2014, 02:28:07 PM »
Quote
Ruby ring on a warrior priest is kind of funny since you can get a killing blow fireball.
Don't you mean witch hunter?

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2014, 03:44:05 PM »
sorry thats a mistype, i meant witch hunter.

Offline polybus11

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2014, 01:19:13 AM »
Thanks for the read.  I've been playing Empire for 5-6 years now and the advice is solid.  I put an army list together after giving it a read through.  It's too bad I can't fit everything in my 2500 list but I found a config that I like enough to run out there at my weekend tourney coming up. 

Here's a couple of additional tips:  I find that the banner on units of 5 knights is quite useful for winning the pillow fights handily or keeping them in there against tougher matchups.
Units of 5 Demi's has a couple advantages over the unit of 4 other than the obvious: It can give your peg riding character a look out sir AND after you lose 3 demis and flee, you can rally on better than snake eyes.

Offline carmaul

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2014, 07:08:55 PM »
Rothgar has a handbook that breaks down the empire:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=46111.0

His review of the Empire book is a lot less opinionated.


Also,  HHG has a tactica for the infantry heavy armies:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42921.0

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2014, 08:11:37 PM »
Well, a tactica is inherently opinionated as it is ENTIRELY made up of me spewing my opinions. If you meant to say "opinions that i disagree with" then say that.

I have read those already, i like what they have to say.

I think new players should also read through those, but the more people's opinions that you get, the better they will understand.

Offline wilsonthenarc

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2014, 11:20:09 PM »
RE: Flagellants
You CANNOT join any characters to this unit so priest prayers and hatred are not accessible.
Did I miss something in the Army Book? I only have ArmyBuilder software right now. That totally lets me put a Level 2 Wizard into a big mob of Flagellants.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2014, 11:32:41 PM »
Flagellants have the Unbreakable special rule.

BRB p. 78: "Characters that are not themselves Unbreakable are not permitted to join units that are (even if a character was to become temporarily Unbreakable for some reason, because of a spell or suchlike)."
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2014, 11:43:54 PM »
which sucks, which is why witch hunters and warrior priests should have a rule allowing them to join flaggies if they want to.

Offline wilsonthenarc

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2014, 11:47:02 PM »
which sucks, which is why witch hunters and warrior priests should have a rule allowing them to join flaggies if they want to.
Or even a +5 points upgrade to make them a "Flagellant Warrior Priest" or a "Flagellant Witch Hunter".

This one misses the mark, thematically and fluff wise.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2014, 01:46:49 AM »
Exactly, in the army book there's pictures of warrior priests in flagellant units

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2014, 08:34:19 AM »
They are used there as Prophets of Doom.   :icon_wink:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Oxymoron

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2014, 08:05:19 AM »
I am a long time player, first time poster.
Excellent thread, should help beginners skip the long hard grind of losses when trying learn how to play their army.  :eusa_clap:

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2014, 03:39:31 PM »
That's kind of the whole idea.


I see almost every new empire player making horrible horrible mistakes and I just wanted to help speed up the learning curve. We get like a dozen posts a week of people saying "i'm new to empire, what am I doing wrong?" and people post the same advice over.... and over.... and over again. so I realized that this whole process could be sped up

I started typing and after 10 pages I realized omg I have a lot to say

Offline wilsonthenarc

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2014, 09:44:32 PM »
Flagellants: These guys are perhaps the hardest choice in our book to use. They have no protection. Their weapons only do anything on the first round of combat, after that you got S3 which sucks. You CANNOT join any characters to this unit so priest prayers and hatred are not accessible. Witch hunters can’t join in to grant magic resistance, nothing. OH and they are twice the cost of a halberdier. They kill themselves in combat too, and sometimes get nice rerolls but its not ever worth it. They die way too easily and you would probably need 40 of these guys to make them every really fight anything. So you should not consider taking these guys unless its for fluff reasons. They are too expensive. Simple as that.

RE: this... Just one vote and a bit of feedback from the field. I ran a horde of 30 Flagellants for a 5 round tourney this weekend and they were an MVP (MVU?). Getting any sort of buff on them really makes them a force. Re-rolling TO HIT and re-rolling to wound is insane.

I completely agree with how much it sucks to not win Round 1 and dip back down to S3. Against demons... My 30 Flags overran into a unit of 4 Beasts of Nurgle. -1 to hit and T5 and Regen is waaaay to tough to finish off. I think I killed 2 of 5 Beasts R1, then - it just lingered. Bad news for the Flags.

For me, a lot of the value is that folks aren't used to playing against Flagellants. I also played against Warriors. The scenario had objectives that gave units random Buffs/Hexes (spells). My Flags charged in against 20 Warriors of Chaos.  The random buff gave my Flags I10. I strike first! They killed 3 of themselves and thus got to re-roll both HITS and WOUNDS, and it was R1 so S5 was huge. In actual combat, they killed 18 of the 19 rank and file warriors and swept away the remaining standard and sorcerer.

I also played Orcs & Goblins twice, and both times the Flags stood toe to toe with a mob of Savage Orc Boys.

Not being able to add characters to Flags does suck.

I lost one game because the Flagellants ate 4 of themselves in a critical last turn combat. That was 4 of 6 remaining.
Might have saved 300+ VPs otherwise. Oh well.

All in all, I am certainly going to give them another shot!

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2014, 01:17:38 AM »
Flaggies are extremely difficult to use, in the right situations (like the ones you describe) they can be EPIC, but about 50% of the time they will totally fail.

My issue with them is that you have essentially a 50% chance for them to be worth their points (not worth twice their points) and a 50% chance that they will be a waste (either lose their VPs, not kill anything, or get tarpitted). Thats just REALLY risky.

Cannons are essentially the same deal, and honestly its hard to buy 30 flagellants when those same points could buy you 3 cannons or 6 demigryphs.

Offline Oxymoron

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2014, 09:48:41 AM »
Totally agree, flaggies are really hard to use and rarely worth the points! Taking them over demis or other special choices isn´t an option in my opinion unless you are going for a themed army or just playing for fun.
Perhaps 9th ed. is around the corner and with that we may see them as core again, then they would perhaps be an option in competitive lists.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2014, 02:06:08 PM »
If you could take one unit as core and they could be joined by warrior priests and they were 2 points less, then sure

Offline wilsonthenarc

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2014, 02:49:46 AM »
If you could (1) take one unit as core and (2) they could be joined by warrior priests and (3) they were 2 points less, then sure

hahaha, that's 1, 2, 3 things we don't have yet.
I don't think I am going to convince you.

Offline emcdunna

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2014, 04:16:05 AM »
I agree with your findings, but it's simply not enough for me to suggest to new players

Offline Brontes

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Re: Tactica: New player? Need help? Frustrated? Heres what you need to know....
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2014, 01:29:04 PM »
A shrieking blade is alway handy for its points cost. Causes fear and protects the unit from fear.