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Author Topic: 2.4k Pike and shot?  (Read 1031 times)

Offline Yarr

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2.4k Pike and shot?
« on: February 09, 2015, 05:08:48 PM »
Hello all,

I am looking to play around with making a pike&shot list and figured I would spin it by here first, incase anyone has any experience with it.

My initial thoughts revolved around two or three 20-30 man blocks of spearem with two detachments of handgunners each. Then probably a Stank, a cannon, maybe a HBVG, lvl4 wizard, BSB, and some Wps.  Any thoughts?

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 05:58:43 PM »
Usually Empire wants to keep core to a minimum as our core troops are sub-optimal.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 10:05:29 AM »
Will look impressive on the table!

With three similar units, your opponents might find it tricky to decide what to do first. On the other hand, if those three units + STank are all your combat units, they will have it hard.

Yet, as Jomppexx said, the infantry is not very effective. Especially Spearmen and Handgunners have a bad record in this edition of WHFB. Both are seen as the worst of the worst. You might do well if you designed some sort of synenergy there, with magic & magic wagons. And definitely a unit or two of hard-hitting cavalry (Knights, IC Knights). The era of Pike & Shotte saw various types of cavalry, and it would be no digression from your idea to add a couple of units. Maybe drop the third Spearman block and reinvest the points.

I'm doing something similar, but then again, the rules I'll be using are Pike and Shotte...  :smile2:

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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 10:28:02 AM »
They could use a rule (a extended version of Pirazzo's Lost legion): 

Mixed formation: The first rank of a Pike & Shotte unit is always made up of Handgunners, and all Handgunners must be placed in the first rank. The second and following ranks are made up entirely of Spearmen. During the game, remove casualties from the back as normal, it is assumed that the Spearmen step forward and discard their spears to pick up the Handguns of the fallen first rankers. Only when all the Spearmen have been killed, can casualties can be taken from the Handgunners in the first rank. You can choose to have a Marksman or a Sergeant as member of the Command Group.
Close Combat: if the unit is attacked from the front, we assume that the Handgunners withdraw behind the Spearmen. However, the unit can still declare a S&S reaction as normal: the Handgunners first fire their weapons, before they withdraw. The first rank of Spearmen counts as being in base to base contact with the enemy, and all attacks are made by and/or directed at the Spearmen, as long as there is one full rank of them. This does not apply if the unit is attacked from the flank or the rear.

That is not going to happen, of course.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 10:49:23 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 10:41:26 AM »
That's one of my favourite rules from a more civilized time of WHFB.  :::cheers:::

-Z
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 10:50:51 AM »
To clarify: only the part I have now put in Italics is adapted from the original DoW rule. The rest I have added myself.
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Offline Dotification

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 06:55:41 AM »
GL making spearmen & handgunners work in 8th Edition, but maybe soon in 9th the pendulum will swing the other way & you'll start seeing lists with those + swordsmen???

FVC, if I could do that with Halberdiers & cheaper Crossbows/Handguns next time around I would be soo happy.  :happy: That would better demonstrate the superiority of Imperial combined-arms training than the crummy 8th Ed. Detachment rules.

Offline Noble Korhedron

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2015, 09:11:34 AM »
@Dotification: Do you think the 7th Ed. Detachment rules were better? Or even the 6th Ed.?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2015, 09:25:56 AM »
Personally, I do not think the new benefits really outweigh the drawbacks:
- detachments causing panic
- no "automatic" flank charge in case of countercharge
- needing 10 models in two ranks to disrupt an enemy (which has lost much of its shine because of steadfast, anyway)
- support fire suffering -1 to Hit for S&S
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Dotification

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2015, 09:40:06 AM »
Sorry, 8th is my first Ed., I've been collecting for a year or so, playing (mostly T&T's) less than that, with my first tourney (Lady of the Lake-Duluth, MN) in August!

It sounds like they nerfed Detachment rules, the War Altar (the rider should get the 4++, it's weird he doesn't) & uhh . . . Swordsmen used to be I 4, right?  But they added the Hurricanum (yeah!) & Luminark (okay with Witch Hunters buffing their aura!  GL getting their bound burning laser off when you want to!) & what else for 8th??

& do we have a wish list for 9th yet?  Do we have any idea if the developers/writers read w-e.com & their ilk??

(Sorry this is getting rather off-topic I realize.)

Offline Noble Korhedron

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2015, 12:04:01 PM »
Personally, I do not think the new benefits really outweigh the drawbacks:
- detachments causing panic
- no "automatic" flank charge in case of countercharge
- needing 10 models in two ranks to disrupt an enemy (which has lost much of its shine because of steadfast, anyway)
- support fire suffering -1 to Hit for S&S
This should either ALL be reversed in 9th or our troops should drop back to their 7th Ed. points costs. End of.

Offline pmaurant

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2015, 07:45:18 PM »
I sank all of my core in knights. They are the best core unit we got and thats just because of the one up armor.  Our core compaired to other armies is sub par especially compaired to WOC or Elves.  I think the problem is that they are mid level they are too good to be cheap but not really good enough to stand up to other core units from other armies.  I think our lack luster core is the empires greatest weakness.  If you want to have empire foot use halberders they are much better than pikes.

Offline Noble Korhedron

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Re: 2.4k Pike and shot?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2015, 09:41:24 PM »
I sank all of my core in knights. They are the best core unit we got and thats just because of the one up armor.  Our core compaired to other armies is sub par especially compaired to WOC or Elves.  I think the problem is that they are mid level they are too good to be cheap but not really good enough to stand up to other core units from other armies.  I think our lack luster core is the empires greatest weakness.  If you want to have empire foot use halberders they are much better than pikes.
He's using spears, he just calls it "pike and shot" after the late Medieval/Early Modern era tactics, of pike squares supported by detachments[;-)] of musket-armed missile infantry.