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Author Topic: Dealing with Blender Lords!  (Read 2420 times)

Offline Gigataur

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Dealing with Blender Lords!
« on: June 16, 2015, 03:20:10 AM »
Hello again! So I am 1-1 against my roommate who plays VC and runs a Blender lord (like a 500pt unit, has red fury etc.) and a weaker vampire (400 pts?) and i appreciate any advice on how to put a stake in their hearts  :icon_rolleyes:.

They were both separate games

I have the game details below but my general questions are:

1. is a level 4 necromancer worth attempting to snipe with my cannons or should I pummel his Vampire Lord group?
2. In melee is it more effective to attack his vampire lord or his skeletons until his vampire lords are the last ones remaining (allowing them to potentially get more rounds of combat) ?
3. Should I cast banishment into their group or try a different lore/strategy for them magic wise?

When I Lost: (2500 pts)

I ran:
40 Halberds full cmd
w/ 2 detachments of archers
10 Archers for Wizards
1 BSB Captain
(I believe I also ran a warrior priest or archlector but not on altar)
1 Life Wizard Lord
1 Heavens Lvl 2 Wizard
2 Cannons
2 Stanks
1 Demigryph unit of 4

For his blender lord he had one in a group of 20 Black Knights.

weaker vampire in a group of 5x6 of skeles

1. I lost when I went Life and just couldnt get a dwellers off for the life of me and then they engaged into my halbediers and that was all she wrote (even with my IC knights flanking)

2. I split my fire and tried sniping his necromancer and just never got it off...perhaps i should just focus on his black knights+blender lord until they are in combat?

3. Was in Horde formation and never got a flank or anything off on the vampires.

4. Cowards eventually ran off the board after watching their brothers get eaten by vampires. :eusa_wall:

the next game which I won...1500 pts.

I ran:

50 Halberds in Bus full command
1 Detachment of 5 archers for chaff
1 War Altar+Arch lector
1 Captain w/ BSB
1 Lvl 4 Wizard of Light
2 Lvl 1's of Light (one with dispel scroll)
1 Group of 4 Demis
1 Group of 5 ICK
1 Great Cannon

His blender AND vampire were in a group of skeles I believe 5x6

BTW: The map was significantly smaller and he got to me in like 1 turn (we played triumph and treachery but we fought the entire time with no cards intervening)

When I won I noticed....

1. I ran light council and dwindled him with banishments but not very often since I only rolled 4-5 Power dice on average per turn (very lackluster). I would always target his group with the two vampires and bunch of skeletons but the skeletons simply soaked the majority of the banishments both the S7 from war altar and S6 from Lvl4.

2.  I was able to get off speed of light in a bubble to my demis+halberds which allowed me to win combat/survive (we ended triumph with me having quite an amount of points over him which is why I consider it a win)

3. I was able to get a flank from my demis on his skeletons/vampire lord group.

I appreciate all the help I can get these guys are tough!  :dry:



Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 11:58:58 PM »
(( Hey Gigataur,

To semi-quote Engineer from Team Fortress 2: "How do I keep a mean miscreant from creating in my posterior a superfluous hole?  Gun.  And if that don't work... more Gun."

A couple of thoughts.

1) The Necromancer is worth targeting, and should be a priority.  Most of his summon and re-summon power will be from the Necromancer.  Not to mention that I think the Lore of Vampires lets Vampires regenerate wounds with successful spells or something.  Removing the Necromancer will also cause the 1-turn instability test... which does have the chance to grant you free wounds on everything.

1-A) Anyway, most Necromancers tend to be Level 4 wizards that usually have that ability that lets them grow units past their original size, while Vampires tend to sit at 1 - 2, depending on cost.  Taking out the Level 4 will greatly empower future magic turns.  Which'll greatly increase your chance to cast your Augments and Magic Missiles.

1-B) Don't forget, on low-power Magic turns, you can try to Slim-cast spells.  Our group calls "Slim-Casting", when you just use 2d6 to try to cast a spell.  With 2d6's biggest average as "7", you can try to cast spells that normally need 11, with a decent chance.

1-B-1) Very poorly calculated statistics gives you about a 50 - 50 chance to cast a Power Level 11 spell on 2d6 + Wizard Level 4.  Banishment has about a 60 - 40 chance on 2d6 + Wizard Level 4.

2) In my opinion, it is usually better to eat away at the skeletons, since they tend to be WS 2, T3 / 5+ Armor Save / 6+ Parry (in other words, easier to cause an unsaved wound)... while the B-Lord tends to be redonkulus.  If you can crack enough skeletons, you stand a better chance of being able to out-pace the B-Lord, in turns of damage caused each turn.  Still, though, it'll take a turn or two to eat through the skeletons... even while they are crumbling.  All the while, the B-Lord will be chewing into your unit as well.

2-A) And, getting rid of the Necromancer will make it less likely the skeleton mob will simply hobble back up from the damage you are causing.

2-B) Sometimes it is advisable to risk the Challenge with an under-powered character, on the idea that you're other guys will be crushing enough skeletons to counter the +5 CR that the B-Lord should be generating as a Challenge result from Overkill.

3) Overall, though, what you could do is avoid the B-Lord and his escort.  Slow it down with Miasma or Curse of Anheir, or terrain impediments, or push it back with the Wind Blast, so that it can only get to risky-charge range for infantry units.

4) Light usually does above-average against Undead of all types... but it'll still take some time for it to really start chewing up the undead, as long as the Necromancer is around.

4-A) You can estimate Banishment, if successfully cast, will take out some 5 - 10 skeletons a turn... but a good Necromancer can generate twice that many back fairly reliably, as the Necromancer will often try to do that Bubble-Raise-Dead spell thingy, that grants new skeletons/wounds to all sorts of stuff.  Hence why taking out the Necromancer should be a priority.

4-A-1) Remember, though, you'll have to bunch up your Light Wizards, as the Power-up effect of Banishment has a 12" range.

4-B) Overall, though, the big power-up of the Banishment doesn't come from the High Strength, but from the volume of hits that it can generate. 5 - 10 skeletons... easily repairable.  But, if you're doing some 10 - 20 skeletons worth of damage a turn, that'll start to take the steam out of the B-Lord's escort.

5) While not necessarily as specific as Light, Fire does pretty well against Undead.  Fireball is a solid, basic spell which is cheap to cast, and Fulminating Flame Cage can often "Freeze" a unit in place for one turn... as, if it moves, all models suffer a hit.

5-A) Piercing Bolts also penalizes Steadfast-sized units.  Against the 5x6 unit-size you were talking about, Piercing would be causing 6d3 hits (average around 12 hits).

5-B) Fire also counters Regeneration, which Undead tend to have via skills, spells, or Corpse Cart effects.

5-C) Also, if you concentrate your Fire (pun intended), subsequent Fire spells get more powerful, without having to use additional dice, via the Lore Attribute. 

5-C-1) So, you singe him with a Fireball, and then trap him with the Fulminating Flame Cage.

6) I would say, with your two tanks, you could probably drop one cannon, to free up some points for some other stuff.

6-A) Be advised that, even with wounding on 6+, a B-Lord can crack a tank-shell, due to the sheer number of attacks / re-rolls they tend to get.

7) Dwellers is an expensive spell to cast.  At a minimum, you need 3d6 to attempt... to reliably cast it, you need 5d6.  Given you said you were having slim-magic phases (4 - 5 Power Dice), that pretty much eliminates it from your casting selection.  As... if you try to cast it, you're opponent is just going to throw all their dispel dice against it, since you pretty much won't have a whole lot of Power Dice left to try to cast something else.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. ))

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2015, 03:33:38 AM »
Thanks for the reply! I will focus fire the Level 4 necro+light of battle my guys while focusing on skeles next time around.  :-P

Offline blackcat

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2015, 07:51:03 AM »
I would suggest dropping the steam tanks. As solid as they are a blender lord will go through them as they usually get to strength 10 anyway. Plus they can be hard to avoid as they are usually in a mounted unit. I would suggest taking 2 hell blasters and an engineer each. The shots you pour out from those two units should be able to punch the unit effectively or deal with any other unit with no problem.

I would take a full light council as well as they are fantastic for dropping units and boosting the combat effectiveness of your fighting units as well.

What specific army has the vampire player been taking?

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2015, 06:59:20 PM »
Yeah I only have one hbvg right now...for 2500 pts he takes

1. 20 or so black knights in bus with a mounted blender lord at the front.
2.level 4 necromancer in a group of 20 or so zombies maybe more
3. 20 ghouls with skeletons possible 20 ? In a horde formation.
4. Weaker vampire with a group of 20 or 30 skeletons. This was 5x6.
5. 2 morghast harbingers right next to each other
6. 1 varghoul

I Think that's everything !
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 09:25:01 PM by Gigataur »

Offline Herrn

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 11:45:43 AM »
I have two questions also, if hes blender lord is in a unit of skeletons or zombies:

Would it be efficient to put a witch hunter in a unit of Bowmen (or something else) with ruby ring and target the blender lord to get Killing blow fireballs (as i read was possible somewhere on the forum)? Or even in a big block of halberds with a witch hunter with RRoF and a lvl1 wizard with horstmann speculum and shoot until you charge?

Or a smaller unit of knights and a mounted wizard with horstmanns speculum to rush in and force the lord to hide so your knights can kill som skeletons?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2015, 01:15:56 PM »
A Witch Hunter will indeed benefit from the KB special rule on hits from the Ruby Ring.

Emore Official Update Version 1.2, p.2:
Q: If a Witch Hunter is equipped with a magic item such as the Ring of Volans or the Ruby Ring of Ruin, will any bound spell effects/magic missiles retain the Killing Blow special rule against the target of the Witch Hunterís Accusation rule? (p37)
A: Yes.

However, do not forget that you cannot target the Vampire Lord in a unit that consists of at least 5 R&F models. No sniping with the Ring either.

The VHS is very useful, but remember that it only swaps the S, I, T and A stats on the profile, and  a VC Lord will usually benefit from other equipment/special rules, not affected by the VHS.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2015, 04:27:14 PM »
The VHS is very useful, but remember that it only swaps the S, I, T and A stats on the profile, and  a VC Lord will usually benefit from other equipment/special rules, not affected by the VHS.
Usually not a problem if your character has low S and A, the vampire can only increase one of these by a large margin. (Or both with Sword of Anti-Heroes) So it would either get 1 attack with high S ("high" being 5 or so) or many attacks with low S.
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2015, 06:03:21 PM »
I was trying to point out that the enemy is not necessarily forced to hide his Vampire Lord.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 08:13:33 AM »
Yeah I only have one hbvg right now...for 2500 pts he takes

1. 20 or so black knights in bus with a mounted blender lord at the front.
2.level 4 necromancer in a group of 20 or so zombies maybe more
3. 20 ghouls with skeletons possible 20 ? In a horde formation.
4. Weaker vampire with a group of 20 or 30 skeletons. This was 5x6.
5. 2 morghast harbingers right next to each other
6. 1 varghoul

I Think that's everything !

Thats all good, take the HBVG with an engineer. Place it next to your halberd block and place your light council near the units as well. Literally blast the **** out of the blender lord's unit. With the HBVG, the light council and any other shooting you have you should be able to destroy it easily. When playing against VC you really need to kill the monsters and characters and not worry about the blocks of infantry as they are just tarpits. I'll write up a list of how I would approach VC.

Have you had anymore games since you posted this thread up? If so, how did they go?

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 05:38:45 PM »
I have but they were against orcs and goblins and WoC.

I ran LC against them and won against the WoC and lost against the orcs+goblins since he waited for me to deploy my cannon so he could outrange it and doom driver my guys.

Offline SoonerSox

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 07:57:02 PM »
What do you mean by outrange? I can't imagine anything with more usable range than a Great Cannon.

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 04:18:39 AM »
Sorry I'm a newer player (playing about 2-3 months) so if i'm not specific I apologize.

During deployment I had to move twice just to get in range of his doom divers from my great cannon since he waited for me to deploy them first and I positioned my other units poorly. I tried to send my ICK's after the doom divers but they got pelted and ran off the board. His goblins also barraged me with poison arrows and my Demigryphs got killed by the doom divers turn 1 by running off the board. Overall I just deployed rather poorly.

Offline blackcat

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 08:10:48 AM »
An empire cannon has 60" range and that's before the bounce. How could he out range you?

Offline Jomppexx

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 01:01:05 PM »
An empire cannon has 60" range and that's before the bounce. How could he out range you?
Corner deployment. Cannon in right corner, doom diver in left.
The doom diver sure wont be shooting at the cannon, but it is out of range.
"Sigmar is like a barbaric, warrior Jesus, and only appeared to be a mortal man."
Highlights :
8/2014 : Grandmaster slew a Chaos Lord in a challenge

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2015, 05:06:54 PM »
right thats what happened basically he shot at my other units and I couldn't counter-artillery him. We were in opposite corners as the person listed above.

I tried to shoot in front of him and master engineer the cannon but he said you cant do that if the war machine flat out ranges you (he has stretched rules in the past).

Offline kuiper

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2015, 08:43:44 PM »
you can shoot at anything that is 80 inch away.
Over 80 would be an attempt to cheat.

you target a unit and measure somthin in front of it, thus the traveled distance could be 60 inch.
this tactic gives you less precision. .

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 09:16:13 PM »
Not quite. In this case, you do not target a unit, but a point on the ground. 

BRB p. 112: "Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight and that is not outside the cannon's maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish."

For a chance to hit the Doom Diver, you need to target a point within 60" and LoS in a straight line before the Doom Diver. If you are lucky, the intended target (as opposed to the declared target) can be 80" away (10" as maximum overshoot + 10" as maximum bounce).
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 09:31:31 AM »
You should definitely be able to target his doom diver. Unless you were both absolutely in the corners as in right at both edges then you should have range to him by using the bounce. I believe that corner to corner is 82" on a 48"x 72" board. With the length of the cannon and the length of the doom diver you should be in range anywhere on the board. Like the others have said you nominate the point on the board and then can bounce it further.

Offline Gigataur

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Re: Dealing with Blender Lords!
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 09:25:06 PM »
Alright sweet ! Thanks guys  :biggriin: this weekend I play against VC with LC as well as I need to play against O&G and Skaven.