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Author Topic: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer  (Read 18951 times)

Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #125 on: July 09, 2015, 11:06:25 PM »
As for necromancy being evil, I don't think that it really is.

I would agree, although WHFB has always pegged it as evil (without any further justification).

But most VC are definitely evil, not because they use necromancy, but because they are pricks. TK - not necessarily.


I think that is exactly what the Elves are - High Elves are a society where post-modernism works (to a degree) whereas Dark Elves are ones where it has failed.

Failed? Dark Elves abolished male privilege and the patriarchy millenia ago, and have raised moral relativism to an art form.

Offline Baron von Klatz

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #126 on: July 09, 2015, 11:29:49 PM »
As for necromancy being evil, I don't think that it really is.

I would agree, although WHFB has always pegged it as evil (without any further justification).

But most VC are definitely evil, not because they use necromancy, but because they are pricks. TK - not necessarily.

I believe there's been good justification of it being malignant. As the winds of magic are bent to one's will so are they controlled in turn. Metal wizards become more rigid and metallic, fire conjurors become obsessed with flames and heat and necromancers begin to see life as a useless thing that's too complicated compared to the silent perfection of oblivion. When Gelt became corrupted by undeath he began to see the soldiers under his command as mere fodder.

As for vampires and tomb kings. Vampires usual choose to embrace their corruption while tomb kings were forced into unlife.

This HoMM 5 video sums up the evils of undeath nicely, skip to 17:40.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RuyVmKcHh8I
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Offline Albrecht Hexenjaeger

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #127 on: July 10, 2015, 12:20:16 AM »
Here's an interview with the lead designer of AoS. Definitely worth watching.

http://captiongenerator.com/48861/Age-of-Sigmar-interview
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Offline FVC

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #128 on: July 10, 2015, 01:10:42 AM »
I believe there's been good justification of it being malignant. As the winds of magic are bent to one's will so are they controlled in turn. Metal wizards become more rigid and metallic, fire conjurors become obsessed with flames and heat and necromancers begin to see life as a useless thing that's too complicated compared to the silent perfection of oblivion. When Gelt became corrupted by undeath he began to see the soldiers under his command as mere fodder.

I confess that I always found the idea that magic directly changes your personality to be odd and even rather limiting - if I play a wizard in WFRP, I want to be able to define my character's personality without having to work around the narrow stereotypes presented - but I think you're almost certainly right about necromancy.

It's important to remember what necromancy is. Necromancy is not defined by its final, outward effects, but by the combination of energies that produces those effects. Necromancy, fundamentally, is a blend of shyish and dhar. It was improvised by Nagash through combining the traditions of the Khemrian mortuary cult with the principles of dark magic as taught to him by shipwrecked Druchii. We all know that shyish is not inherently corrupting, and there's nothing intrinsically evil about magic that manipulates energies associated with death; but we do know that dhar is always corrupting.

Liber Tzeentch and Realms of Sorcery discuss this at some length. Dhar is corrupted or polluted magic; a sort of stagnant, highly toxic magical energy that you get by squishing all the winds together until they lose their focus. Use of dhar is highly dangerous, as its toxicity both rots the flesh and corrupts the mind. (Over-use of dhar is why Necrarchs, for instance, are usually both insane and rotting away. Dhar is also why vampires need to drink blood: vampire 'biology', so to speak, is powered by dark magic, so they need to regularly get rid of 'used' blood, which is suffused with dhar, and replaced it with untainted blood.) Druchii have to some degree learned how to use dhar safely, with the aid of elven mental discipline, but even they cannot protect themselves from it completely, and it probably does influence the sadism and cruelty of Druchii culture.

As with Balthasar Gelt, then, it is entirely unsurprising that learning necromancy would have negative effects on one's psychology. Necromancy is a type of dark magic. Dark magic makes people go crazy.

Quote
This HoMM 5 video sums up the evils of undeath nicely, skip to 17:40.

A vivid example indeed, but HoMM necromancy works a little differently. HoMM V's aesthetics are very derivative of WHF, though, so I can see the strong connection. It really is tempting to compare Sandro and Nagash, isn't it?

Offline Syphon

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #129 on: July 10, 2015, 10:07:26 AM »
Except I still have respect for Sandro. He never got a ridiculous pope hat like some necromancer I know. In fact, Nagash was entirely ruined when I saw that first iteration of him.
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Offline FVC

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #130 on: July 10, 2015, 12:42:30 PM »
Except I still have respect for Sandro. He never got a ridiculous pope hat like some necromancer I know. In fact, Nagash was entirely ruined when I saw that first iteration of him.

Well, yes, Nagash was never as cool as this, and I'm even one of the heretical few who genuinely quite liked HoMM VI and its Sandro DLC.

But Nagash has had a few good moments regardless.  :-)

Offline Syphon

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #131 on: July 10, 2015, 01:36:12 PM »
HoMM is up to six now? God you kids and your newfangled toys. I remember hot-seating part 1!
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Offline FVC

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #132 on: July 10, 2015, 10:56:58 PM »
HoMM is up to six now? God you kids and your newfangled toys. I remember hot-seating part 1!

They're actually making VII now.

Unfortunately I can't play it, as I'm still running Windows 32-bit, but I'd like to give it a chance. My major worry with it is that they're throwing out most of the innovations made in VI in a desperate attempt to appeal to the HoMM III veterans. Now, I played III when it was new, I really like HoMM III and it probably is the best HoMM game, but I'd rather they try to evolve the formula than just make III again with better graphics. VI really felt different, with more directed character growth, town conversion, and a creature line-up that buffed the early creatures and nerfed champions so that all creatures remained relevant for the entire game. VI had lots of problems with the execution, and was obviously rushed out the door unpolished by UbiSoft (it didn't even have town screens until a while after release!), but I appreciated that they were actually trying to do something with it.

VII might be good. I hope it's good. But I'll probably respect it less, I suppose. Cloning III with modern graphics will appeal to the retro crowd, but honestly, no game will ever be better at being HoMM III than HoMM III was.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #133 on: July 13, 2015, 02:19:58 AM »
I loved HOM3. Still play it.

I can understand appealing to the retro, however I also love the old school graphics.

I need to play the new ones to understand the new gameplay and fluff.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #134 on: July 13, 2015, 07:27:13 AM »
Yep, HOMM3 is still the best - lovely graphics too, even if technically outdated. Main negative point is the fact that some skills are simply worthless. I also like the idea of the Unique [and Absolute] Skills in HOMM5.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 07:41:43 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline shavixmir

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2015, 07:30:16 AM »
As for necromancy being evil, I don't think that it really is.

I would agree, although WHFB has always pegged it as evil (without any further justification).

But most VC are definitely evil, not because they use necromancy, but because they are pricks. TK - not necessarily.


I think that is exactly what the Elves are - High Elves are a society where post-modernism works (to a degree) whereas Dark Elves are ones where it has failed.

Failed? Dark Elves abolished male privilege and the patriarchy millenia ago, and have raised moral relativism to an art form.
Yeah... Bringing the dead back to life to work as your murderous slaves isn't evil.

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Offline FVC

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #136 on: July 13, 2015, 07:39:38 AM »
Yep, HOMM3 is still the best - lovely graphics too, even if technically outdated. Main negative point is the fact that some skills are simply worthless.

You remember Eagle Eye as well?  Oh, dear me...

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #137 on: July 13, 2015, 07:40:30 AM »
Or Mysticism.
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Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #138 on: July 13, 2015, 10:15:29 AM »
Let me give you an idea of the scale of changes regarding the rules for our beloved Empire:

One of the rules of Kurt Helborg:

Pride of the Reiksguard: Helborg's skill is as legendary as his moustache is magnificent. You can re-roll any failed hit rolls when attacking with the Runefang so long as you have a bigger and more impressive moustache than your opponent.

The Mad Count: Marius Leitdorf is an exceptional swordsman, even if he is totally insane. If, during your hero phase, you pretend to ride an imaginary horse, you can re-roll failed hit rolls for the Averland Runefang until your next hero phase. If you actually talk to your imaginary horse you can re-roll failed wound rolls as well.

If you don't believe me, check out the rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-the-empire-en.pdf

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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #139 on: July 13, 2015, 12:28:31 PM »
My understanding after I had a talk with my local games shop employee's is that most of the units and models will continue and that the units/models with these silly rules are the first to be discontinued.
Most will be clear (I think) when the big fluff book will be launched next weekend where more of the alliances and factions will become more clear.

Atleast some of the current models from the Warriors of Chaos are continued in new boxes added to the "new" Khorne Bloodbound faction like the skullcruschers, skullreapers and wrathmongers I have seen being added to the starterbox set and of which I have seen the repacked boxes (white) though they might look the same as with the End Times (missed those boxes, actually missed out on that period totally on warhammer)
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Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: Warhammer Age of Sigmar - we killed warhammer
« Reply #140 on: July 13, 2015, 12:34:33 PM »
Or Mysticism.

In the Wake of Gods most "bad" skills became really useful. Eagle Eye is still shit tough.
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