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Author Topic: AoS game experience and feedback  (Read 4607 times)

Offline Dosiere

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AoS game experience and feedback
« on: July 06, 2015, 11:07:03 PM »
If you've actually played this thing, let's talk about it. I'm hoping to get a few games in at my flgs to really see, but I've played several games with my oldest son now and the game plays differently than I thought.  So here's what I've seen so far, in no particular order,  and I'm interested to hear what this community thinks about this game who have played it:

1) the streamlined rules are nice, in theory. War hammer really needed to be easier to get into and faster to play, and this does do that.

2) the lack of of an army builder system still makes zero sense. The sudden death mechanic was a clever idea but it's not enough for me. 

3) shooting and magic are simple thank goodness, it's fast and simple and I like the mechanics except....

4) shooting is crazy stupid OP if you play RAW.  For reals, I played one game where I threw a good portion of my artillery on the table for my son to use and it was ridiculous.  Granted, I have a very large empire collection, so we're talking like 10 cannons, mortars, etc..  But still.  Also, assuming I didn't get this wrong, a unit can shoot while in close combat?! So a unit can move, shoot, charge. In the following turn they can shoot at the unit they are engaged with AND then fight in close combat?  That's a whole lot of extra attacks.  I already decided to play that a unit can't shoot into or out of combat.

5) oddly, I found the combat mechanics to be too complicated, compared to the rest of the game.  They should have gotten rid of one of the steps. One thing I did when playing my son was to use the highest of the to hit and to wound values of a model as a "fight" value and that's how many wounds a model does. Seems crazy I know but it made it go faster and it worked great with him.

6) we used very few special rules at first, but started to after the 1st game. Do yourself a favor and PRINT OUT THE WARSCROLLS before you play this thing.  I had it all on a tablet but it was super annoying to look everything up. If I had printed them out and had them handy it would have saved some time. 

So, bottom line is I see why someone thought this game was a great idea for a certain audience but I just can't see this catching on with the current fantasy crowd without some pretty extensive house ruling.  It's not a replacement for WFB.  It's cool to play with my son but I can't imagine this taking the same place fantasy did for me as a gamer and hobbyist.  My experiences at my club are going to decide a lot for me personally.  Problem is, no one seems to be playing it yet.

Offline Derg

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 11:19:40 PM »
Game sucks simple as that. You'd have more fun sitting on opposite sides
Of a room throwing your models and dice at each other until someone draws blood.

Offline GenOmar

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 01:23:15 AM »
we had a game played in our club this weekend, I wasn't playing but mostly helping the players to interpret the rules as best we could.  for only 4 pages of rules it was surprising how many times we had to refer back to the rule set.
the play what ever models you want is way too unsettling we had to come up with something to build an army  just for our own sanity.
thoughts on the game:
 - scenery: we didn't use the AoS rules, should have but we were trying to keep the confusion to a minimum.
 - roll to to first every round, very cool
 - the Hero phase, this has some potential to be the most important phase of the game.  both generals only had the Inspiring Presence, would like to see how some of the other abilities work out.  magic was meh for the most part, but there were very few casters in the game.
 - shooting: we totally missed until late that you could shoot into and out of combat, old addition hangover I guess.  that could really change things a bit.
all in all it was fun, some heated debates in the "pile in" phase.  move towards "the" closest enemy model.  not towards "a" close enemy model.  seems easy enough.
I have a game set up on Thursday, we'll see how a second run at this Age of Sigmar works as we get more familiar with the game flow.
so we're talking like 10 cannons, mortars, etc.. 
kill the crew and the Warmachine will just sit there.
Game sucks simple as that. You'd have more fun sitting on opposite sides
Of a room throwing your models and dice at each other until someone draws blood.
can we please keep one forum topic about the game play.  there are plenty of "this game sucks" threads already
thank you
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Offline Dosiere

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 01:34:35 AM »
I never got an opportunity to attack any of the war machines. I'll have to revisit how that works when you shoot at them.  Having something fast and shooty might work if the crew aren't too hard to take out.

What did you guys do for the army building?  I'm curious to see what my group does with it.  I'm torn between liking the freedom but like you said, sanity.

Offline Derg

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 04:04:34 AM »
Well that's my experience with the game or was that not the topic of this thread. sorry I'm not trying to dig out little morsels of decency  outta this steaming pile bear shit   
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:14:09 AM by Derg »

Offline Warlord

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 04:07:58 AM »
Fair enough Derg.

But let the others discuss it too, and don't shout down all the 'productive' talk about AoS.

Those who want to play it should be allowed to talk together on how best to play it.
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Offline Derg

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 04:15:28 AM »
Sure have fun with your "game" or what ever it is I'll leave the thread be.

Offline Dosiere

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 04:47:13 AM »
Game sucks simple as that. You'd have more fun sitting on opposite sides
Of a room throwing your models and dice at each other until someone draws blood.

While I understand and I certainly dislike many things about this new game, I want to at least play it a few times and see.  Since at this point in time that requires zero investment from me I figure why not.  I've already got the models, and the rules, such as they are, are free.  I get the impression many have not actually tried to play it, and my intention here was to talk to other forum members who have, even if they have nothing but negative things to say.  So even if you hated it, let's at least talk about WHY you hated a game of AoS. 😀

Offline RE.Lee

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2015, 08:08:08 AM »
I played a game of Tk vs HE. Smallish.
I liked the way monsters worked. I liked the simple command/spell abilities.
Didn't like how there's not real movement. Shooting was very minor, but it does seem that shooting into combat is crazy good.
The key part is that there's no balance at all - its not a game, its playing with toys. I'm no power gamer, but you need some sort of balance for there to be a game - even ManU playing Reading have the same number of players on the field.
Very disappointed - I was looking forward to the release of 9th and we got this...thing.
cheers,
Lee

Offline Lord_Crom

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2015, 08:31:15 AM »
I really like this game. I was heavily invested in 8th and a bit shocked with new rules but played a game and then went back and played 8th. After AoS, 8th seems quite clunky. In the new game I like the close combat selection. As far as I can see you don't have to retaliate with your unit straight away so I pick another combat so they get to hit first in the hope I can reduce attacks. Makes selecting combats really important. Let me know if this is against the rules.

Shooting whilst in combat is powerful but empire handgunners aren't going to live that long and they can't use steady aim. Trying to work out how my new AoS Empire army is going to defeat Thanquol as he is a beast. Using Dwarf cannons instead of Empire ones as my new army is a mix of the two.

Offline Krokz

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2015, 12:19:22 PM »
2) the lack of of an army builder system still makes zero sense. The sudden death mechanic was a clever idea but it's not enough for me. 
I've played one game yesterday. And on the table it is much more balanced then theory crafting.

Game has MUCH sense but it is not meant for Warhammer community, we are not targeted consumers. Rules for tourtnaments go like this (I made them up as an example to understand AoS):

4 Factions.
Max 15 warscrolls per army (maybe max 50 wounds per unit), no duplicates allowed.
Max 4 each Wizard, Priest, Monster, Hero keyword.

At deployment you can decide not to deploy certain units. Your army is like deck of cards. You only deploy units that will be good vs. your opponent. And depends how many models you want to put on the table since that affects winning condition. Game is finished after objective is done or 90 minutes pass. At 90 min. game ends, no additional time for ending the turn. Since you don't start each round it is fair. Count the models, get minor or major victory. 5 games per day, one day tournaments.

Look at game like Magic the Gathering. This prerelease of backwards compatibility are just alpha cards, AoS will be the game and Warscrolls will be cards that will play in "Modern" setting. GW just released bunch of cards without telling us how to create a deck.
When you put your mind OUT of classic Fantasy wargame paradigm you see that this game has GREAT potential.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 12:25:50 PM by Krokz »

Offline knightofthelance

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2015, 12:25:24 PM »
I wrote this on another forum asking a similar question. Some of it is reply to point the original poster made, but you should be able to get the point. I'm too lazy to write it again. I will add that the day following this post we played a game with the kids, and it worked really well for that. I'll leave it up to you to decide if that's good/bad. But it is nice to have a game where the kids get to play with the models they usually only get to stare at (they are old enough that I trust them with safely handling them, but only barely).

Quote
We got two small games in today. I'm not going to go to great length on them, because I can't take it seriously enough.

1. The game is good light hearted fun, I enjoyed it more than I expected to.
1a. Balance is what you make it. Both on the unit and army level.
2. I fully agree on there being a lot to keep track of. Perhaps to much to be honest. I'm glad we kept the games to a small size, as we would have had to cut back on the beverages if there was more record keeping to do.
3. I can't agree that strategy is present in "droves". But it is there. The 3" rule is probably the most important part of it.
4. Shooting is nuts, but hey- that speeds the game up. Being able to attack with shooting and melee seems a bit off though.
5. Movement is simple, and good for a game like this. Way to simple if you like WFB or are into historicals of "comparable" time periods. It's right for what this game is though.

I really really hope that people leave this game alone. Don't try to make it into something it's not. As soon as you start complicating things it will lose many of the positive things it has going for it. I know someone is going to muck it up like they did warhammer, but it's nice to hold out hope that doesn't happen for now. The reason that it works is that you can just relax about winning/losing and just play. The minute you try to make it competitive there will be tons of "fixes" to make as common sense will be out the window. All taht will muck it up and kill the simplicity/loose attitude- which is the biggest asset.

The "most important rule" should be "Ah F#$& it, who cares? It'll be fun like this". There will always be a bigger luck factor in this than in WFB, so I don't see why anyone would play this competitively over that. And while it was fun, I own other games that are more fun. The best use I see for this playing some games with the kids to get them started in the warhammer world (they get to play tomorrow) or if the models are already out for a game of warhammer and you've got a bit of time to kill.

I really did enjoy it, but if I'd gone into it thinking it was going to be my warhammer replacement I would not have. It's just not even remotely the same thing.

Offline LochNESS

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2015, 01:39:55 PM »
Well, I finally had time to sit down and do a deep analysis of the Age of Sigmar rules that you might find interesting. It is a long read on my blog but I think you'll find it interesting. In general I think it is a pretty solid rule set, but also a rule set in its infancy. There are still a lot of exploits and quite a few questions that need to be FAQ-ed. But I do think the system has potential and that it looks rather fast paced and fun. Also it has great opportunities for fluffy and nice expansions, something that is said to be planned for the comming months and years. And the storytelling element seems to be rather thorrowly implemented in the game based on 'unboxing' and previews.

If I will ever like it as much as Warhammer Fantasy remains to be seen, as it still lacks depth and in some ways character. But all in all I think everyone should give it a try as the rules are free. It's just that you and your friend need a lot of agreement on what is 'fair game' in terms of 'fair play' this game as there is no 'natural' balancing through a points system. It is rumoured though that GW will release a set of rules for tournament play and thus for selecting 'balanced' armies.
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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 02:26:58 PM »
Well, I finally had time to sit down and do a deep analysis of the Age of Sigmar rules that you might find interesting. It is a long read on my blog but I think you'll find it interesting. In general I think it is a pretty solid rule set, but also a rule set in its infancy. There are still a lot of exploits and quite a few questions that need to be FAQ-ed. But I do think the system has potential and that it looks rather fast paced and fun. Also it has great opportunities for fluffy and nice expansions, something that is said to be planned for the comming months and years. And the storytelling element seems to be rather thorrowly implemented in the game based on 'unboxing' and previews.

If I will ever like it as much as Warhammer Fantasy remains to be seen, as it still lacks depth and in some ways character. But all in all I think everyone should give it a try as the rules are free. It's just that you and your friend need a lot of agreement on what is 'fair game' in terms of 'fair play' this game as there is no 'natural' balancing through a points system. It is rumoured though that GW will release a set of rules for tournament play and thus for selecting 'balanced' armies.

Nice read! (still reading)
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Offline LochNESS

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2015, 02:29:59 PM »
@ StealthKnightSteg: Oh, I missed that part, and I thought I had carefully examinated all the (four pages of) rules for my write up. Will have to edit my article on that (rather important) aspect...
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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2015, 02:52:19 PM »
@ StealthKnightSteg: Oh, I missed that part, and I thought I had carefully examinated all the (four pages of) rules for my write up. Will have to edit my article on that (rather important) aspect...

One other minor point in the conclusion (though I might remember wrong)
Sigmar doesn't reside in the Realm of Heavens but in the Celestial Realm. Besides the magic currents their seems to be 2 more realms the Celestial Realm and the Realm of Chaos.
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Offline LochNESS

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2015, 03:00:33 PM »
@ StealthKnightSteg: Oh, I missed that part, and I thought I had carefully examinated all the (four pages of) rules for my write up. Will have to edit my article on that (rather important) aspect...

One other minor point in the conclusion (though I might remember wrong)
Sigmar doesn't reside in the Realm of Heavens but in the Celestial Realm. Besides the magic currents their seems to be 2 more realms the Celestial Realm and the Realm of Chaos.

That one I did get correct...

According to the White Dwarf:
Azyr, the Realm of Heavens: The Realm of Heavens glitters like a swirl of celestial jewels, its palaces glowing from within. Here, mighty Sigmar resides
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Online Oxycutor

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2015, 03:04:26 PM »
Celestial = Heavens.   And I'm pretty sure that's where Sigmar reigns.   The city of Azyrheim, in the Realm of Azyr. 

Celestial Wizards use Lore of Heavens in old Warhammer, Celestial Hurricanum has Azur in it's keyords, and again in 8th could only be used by a Heavens Wizard.

Edit: Ninja'd

Offline Dosiere

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2015, 04:43:02 PM »
Well this thing is DOA at my FLGS.  I can maybe get a game sometime in the next week, but whatever excitement people had is evaporating at some of the "broken" parts of AoS.  Summoning is a sore point, and shooting only less so.  Some people still haven't quite made sense of it all, but very very few current fantasy players are pushing it, maybe like 2 people out of a large fantasy community. Some of the guys who are close friends are trying to play, but pick-up games are nonexistent. 

Some are pushing to adopt a balancing system that will help with that, like this idea of creating formations :  http://www.wargaminguk.com/blog/age-of-sigmar-balance/

 Sigh... I hope GW knows what they're doing, but this thing is NOT being received well by even a significant minority of the WFB crowd, at least here.  I expected more since we do/did have a large and active fantasy crowd.

Offline Gankom

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2015, 04:52:29 PM »
I went to my local store (Hour and a half away but that's the closest I get.) to see what it's like. Previously it was mostly 4ok and almost no fantasy. I was there Monday afternoon and into the evening and the only game getting played as AoS. Monday is officially Games-Workshop night but in practice it's been nothing but 40k for ages, so it was pretty surprising. Everyone seemed to be loving it. That said, a large portion of the discussion was about balancing it. It seemed pretty simple when people were starting the game, they worked it out fairly quickly between them. Usually it was based on number of scrolls, or wounds.

I didn't get a chance to play myself, but I'm looking forward to giving it a go.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2015, 05:45:15 PM »
So, basically, 40K players are now playing 4K.  I cannot imagine why.
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Offline shavixmir

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2015, 07:58:11 PM »
Right, just played a game of AoS.

7 scrolls each... As for the rest as close to the rules as possible (we forgot hero phases and things every now and then)
Enemy: ogres
2 heroes
1 cannon tusky thing
1 unit of scrap shooters 9 models
1 unit of ogres 9 models or so, maybe 12
2 giants

The good guys: dwarfs
1 slayer lord
1 Thane army banner man
2 cannons
1 unit of thunderers (21 troops)
1 unit of hammerers (20 troops)
1 unit of slayers (20 troops).

Opponent declined sudden death.

The balance of the game is taking as many models in the units, but trying to decline the opponent sudden death at the same time. Not really possible against ogres.
However, the game turned out pretty balanced.

Charge range is the same as in 8th: too much!
That being said, this seems to be a personal peeve of mine. Most people I know are fine by it.
Magic is much better. Not very powerful and at the start of the turn as it should be!
Shooting is good, but not overly so. The thunderers, especially when they were over 20 (and had double shots), were excellent. In close combat they suck. The enemy charges them. Enemy gets to hit. You get to miss back. And lots of fellow thunderers decide to go and have a picknick.
Yes, in your own turn you can shoot back, but that's just as well, 'cause their combat prowess might have caused 2 wounds in total.
So... Quite pleased with it.
Cannons are okay. They'd be much better with an engineer near them (which is a good thing... I like the concept).
Same as the Thane. If he doesn't walk. He can plant his banner and units don't suffer battle shock. Send him into battle he dies... And your troops start crumbling like ancient buildings in Syria.

The synergy between the slayer lord and the slayers was very cool. Especially against those multi-wounded opponents.

Giants are horribly strong. But they're vulnerable. They mow through a unit of thaneless hammerers like I chew through chips.
A slayer lord can take him down.

The 360* pov is something I have to get used to, but it wasn't too bothersome.

I lost, but it was close (thane wasn't meant for combat).

All in all, I don't think the game is less balanced than 8th.
And I think, tactically, it might be an improvement.

A proper use of the retreat movement opens a whole range of possibilities.
The synergy between various heroes and units makes for interesting combo's and at the same time, it narrows down the choices you'll want to make.

The shooting into combat was less powerful than I expected and the nerfing of magic can only be good.

When I saw Inwas going to outnumber the opponent, I could have opted to plop down 100 hammerers instead of 20.
But then he would certainly have chosen the sudden death scenario. And trying to take a hill from him by turn 4 would have been nigh on impossible and if I had to choose between my thane or slayer as an assissin's target, I would have lost quickly too.
So, that keeps a form of balance.

The shooting range is 16" with thunderers. Potentially they'll get one round in before someone can charge them. That pretty much keeps them in check qua usefulness (especially if you want to avoid a sudden death scenario).

All in all, I think a lot more thought has went into the game than I first imagined.
I would presume the next step is creating scenarios along the lines of:
7 scrolls, maximum 2 heroes, minimal of 50 wounds.

I'll have to play some more games to get a proper feeling, but after a first game I seriously think there's potential here.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:00:54 PM by shavixmir »
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Offline Dosiere

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2015, 08:10:25 PM »
A few questions:

Are you still using movement trays ?

What do you feel like the difference is time wise vs WFB?  A 2500 pt WFB could easily take 2.5+ hours, too long for me most of the time.

Offline Syn Ace

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2015, 08:20:10 PM »
Dwarven cannons with an engineer seems like it would be insanely powerful and could tear a giant apart in short order. Hit on 4+ and with a full crew, you get 2 shots each doing D6 damage at -2 Rend; add in the engineer and you get to reroll failed to hit rolls.
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Offline shavixmir

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Re: AoS game experience and feedback
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2015, 08:23:05 PM »
A few questions:

Are you still using movement trays ?

What do you feel like the difference is time wise vs WFB?  A 2500 pt WFB could easily take 2.5+ hours, too long for me most of the time.
Yeah, I used movement trays. Ogres did not.
He lapped around (but he didn't need to move many models).
because my units weren't too large, we just assumed that with the pile in the would all have got to strike.
Note: if he had wanted to charge my unit that was theoretically piled into him he would have had to roll less than thr distance to the tray.
I presume placing a single model from the ranks (in a form of good old fashioned wrap around) af the furthest point needed, would solve the issue.
With dwarfs you have to use movement trays... Or you'll be spending hours moving models.

7 scrolls is roughly a 1250 game, I reckon.
Maybe plays slightly faster (but we had to keep looking up the rules).

You place one unit alternatively. You can choose which unit and how many models each time you place a unit.
If fighting a non-ogre opponent, I presume you'll try to mirror each other's numbers so as not to give the opponent sudden death.

Everything of value is vulnerable