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Author Topic: What literature are you reading?  (Read 14838 times)

Online Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #575 on: December 06, 2018, 04:15:42 PM »
How many Ladies of the Lake are there? How are they different from the damsels of the lake?  I think either the translation is not adding up or Malory just expected the reader to understand or not care but dammit I want to know! Like who the fuck was in the water giving out Excalibur if The lady of the lake was the one on the shore explaining everything to Arthur and gave him her boat to get the sword? Then she dies a few chapters later. But how if she is suppose to be magical? Then Nimue shows up and is also a lady/damsel of the lake as well as others. Are they of different lakes? Is the one inside the lake the queen of the lake? Is there a hierarchy of some sort? Who is in charge? Is anyone in charge? How do they work?



Also I keep getting Morgan le Fay and Morgause confused which may explain why in other retellings they just combine the two sisters of Arthur into one. Half of the Le Morte D'Arthur articles I can find end up confusing them or combining them too, which makes me really distrust them since they obviously did not read the book they are reporting on.

Thus far, I really wish Arthur didn't marry Guenever, but instead got together with Nimue. No wonder Merlin liked her. She's so charming and helpful that she rescues Arthur a few times. Guenever has pretty much done nothing but sit around and eat cake.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #576 on: December 06, 2018, 05:11:24 PM »
In "La Morte d'Arthur" there are in fact two Ladies/Damosels of the Lake, but only one is named: Nymue, the "chyef lady of the lake."
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Online Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #577 on: December 06, 2018, 06:56:45 PM »
There seems to be more, or at least agents of them at least. And who is in the lake! :icon_eek:
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #578 on: December 06, 2018, 09:33:37 PM »
The (unnamed) Lady of the Lake talking to Arthur at the time when Excalibur appears is clearly not Nymue, as that person is killed afterwards by Balin. Although the arm holding Excalibur does not necessarily belong to a Lady of the Lake, there is nothing to prevent the arm belonging to Nymue either. Once Balin has killed the unnamed Lady of the Lake, the only one left is Nymue, and there is no reason to assume that all later references to the "Lady of the Lake" that do not add a name would not refer to Nymue.

Edited for clarity.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:05:45 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Online Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #579 on: December 07, 2018, 03:23:06 AM »
True but there is nothing explaining all this so its conjecture. There can be multiple ladies of the lake but we just do not know and I very much want to know. Its left as a mystery which makes it seem more whimsical, but I want more!
 :happy:

I suppose this is more or less the way GW ended up approaching the myths when they made the Bretonnians as the damsels are very much like the damsels of the lake. Their take on how to explain the whimsy of the ladies/damsels of the lake and all that.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #580 on: December 07, 2018, 02:16:55 PM »
Well, if you use Python logic, there must be several. The head lady of the lake who distributes Excalibur is the one who appoints monarchs while the others who distribute less grander blades must be the ones responsible for smaller seats of government :biggriin:

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #581 on: December 09, 2018, 09:20:37 PM »
Finished Pratchett - Interesting Times - very good. Really like Rincewind. Thanks to a storyline image from another site, I now know the proper timeline.
Got the beginning of that Rincewind arc. - The Color of Magic

Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?

Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

GP Aug 8, 2019
Can we just take a hammer to it, smash it into little bits.

Offline Finlay

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #582 on: December 10, 2018, 01:36:00 PM »
i've read Mort and Guards! Guards!

I liked Mort a lot. Thought G!G! was just ok.

I actually liked the chosen peasant king hidden in dwarfs who you think is the main character better than the captain guy who is actually the main character.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Gankom

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #583 on: December 10, 2018, 04:48:57 PM »
Everybody liked Captain Carrot. That's his thing.

The first few Guard books really show the evolution of all the crew. They all get a lot more development.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #584 on: December 11, 2018, 04:42:01 PM »
That is an interesting chart above.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #585 on: December 12, 2018, 03:47:14 AM »
Just read the first thirty pages of Blood Gorgons. The civil populace is trapped between the chaos marines and the dark elder.

Offline Dihenydd

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #586 on: December 12, 2018, 10:29:50 PM »
True but there is nothing explaining all this so its conjecture. There can be multiple ladies of the lake but we just do not know and I very much want to know. Its left as a mystery which makes it seem more whimsical, but I want more!
 :happy:

I suppose this is more or less the way GW ended up approaching the myths when they made the Bretonnians as the damsels are very much like the damsels of the lake. Their take on how to explain the whimsy of the ladies/damsels of the lake and all that.

Ah, so another one joins the Circle of Arthurian Conjecturers.  Answers that will never really be solved, not for lack of trying.

Personally, I take the position that these are really really really old stories.  Some with Paleolithic roots, combined in a stew with oral tales from several tribes who came and went.  These percolate slowly over time into myths and legends describing the values of various peoples, unknown religious imagery, or just a yarn over beer to prove a point.  There was never an attempt to make this a consistent historical milieu, they are stories.  Then along comes some Romans.  New stories are created from the various peoples serving in legions adding new meats and spices to the stew.  Then the bad times, and the stories of the past are renamed as the larger than life figures that prevail.  Culture changes again, and the stories morph real people (maybe) into the same pseudo legends of the near and ancient past, but is really just the same old stew.  Eventually along come some poncy Norman and Romance writers who jot down their interpretation of the same stories to sell to Nobles who can read.  This happens a couple of times. 

My prof had it right.  Instead of dismissing "Myths" as stories that are untrue, they are Stories of what is True (values, insight) filled with things that may or may not be facts.  Arthur, in all his forms, is Myth.  Some of which may be slightly true at some point, but all it reflects something important to various peoples at various points in history.

Any attempt to turn this stew into its base ingredients again is doomed to disappointment.  You can't point at a drop of gravy and say "This is the part based on Ogham trees" etc.  Which Arthur story is true?  All of them.  And probably none of them.

When I hear people debate Arthur and try to pave over the inconsistencies between versions I tend to walk away very slowly while nodding in apparent agreement.  Still, I will watch almost every movie version, and have read most of them.  They are all great in some way, but I have no time for those guys who get all upset that it got some part of the story wrong.  Even that Richard Gere movie had some insights.

Anyways, not sure why I felt the need to write this, but it is a favorite pastime of mine.  Have fun trying to make sense of it that works for you!  If you want even darker and IMHO older stories read some "Gawain and the Green Knight".  There's some old old roots there.
Blah

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #587 on: December 13, 2018, 03:56:37 AM »
Speaking of the Arthur legend. The other day something hit me like an Acme anvil from a Roadrunner cartoon. I remember being disappointed with the Excalibur film when I picked it up on VHS and the other day in question ['anvil day' if you must], I realised its like the Western Winchester '73. The weapon is the focus of the film and is handed to several people throughout the story.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #588 on: December 13, 2018, 01:25:01 PM »
Recently I started a thread on King Arthur over here ... http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=52814.0

And upon Rowsdower's inspiration, posted this ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Npo0cmp-VY

It didn't get far. :icon_lol:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Online Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #589 on: December 19, 2018, 07:53:54 PM »
Reading more of "Le Morte d'Arthur"

I really like the tale of Sir Gareth of Orkney ,but there wasn't an ork in sight!  :engel: Thought it was funny that Lyoness's little sister was cockblocking her by summoning a knight to stab Gareth in the leg on the nights they wanted to bone-down before marriage. As we all know, nothing kills the mood like being stabbed in the leg. Siblings would do something like that.

I am currently on the "First and the Second Book of Sir Tristrams de Lione" which feels weird to me because I read "Tristan and Isolde" in college for a French culture class. They are very similar so it kind of feels like I am reading an extended version of a reboot. Its the same story but now with more knightly battles, slightly different backstories, and weird arbitrary facts. For example a girl really liked him and sent him 3 letters but he didn't get them because he set sail for Ireland to fight in a duel so the girl got depression and died. I feel like I could skip this whole chapter but I know I am going to miss something different or important if I do.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #590 on: December 19, 2018, 11:21:48 PM »
Reading more of "Le Morte d'Arthur"

I really like the tale of Sir Gareth of Orkney, but there wasn't an ork in sight!

Duh. What did you expect? Orkney=Orc nay=no Orcs.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline wissenlander

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #591 on: December 20, 2018, 03:44:46 PM »
Terry Pratchett's Color of Magic.
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Online Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #592 on: December 20, 2018, 04:27:54 PM »
Reading more of "Le Morte d'Arthur"

I really like the tale of Sir Gareth of Orkney, but there wasn't an ork in sight!

Duh. What did you expect? Orkney=Orc nay=no Orcs.

fair point!
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #593 on: December 20, 2018, 06:25:09 PM »
Terry Pratchett's Color of Magic.

Just finished it. Really fun book. Iím continuing the arc with the light fantastic as Rincewind and Twoflower are quickly becoming favourites of mine.
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?

Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

GP Aug 8, 2019
Can we just take a hammer to it, smash it into little bits.

Offline Rowsdower

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #594 on: December 23, 2018, 12:53:11 PM »
Terry Pratchett's Color of Magic.

Just finished it. Really fun book. I’m continuing the arc with the light fantastic as Rincewind and Twoflower are quickly becoming favourites of mine.

Time for me to watch my annual Christmas movie, Hogfather

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #595 on: December 24, 2018, 03:03:45 PM »
Working on my reading project as I donít have any other projects able to go.
Only started reading Sourcerer. Got carried away with the pen

Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?

Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

GP Aug 8, 2019
Can we just take a hammer to it, smash it into little bits.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #596 on: December 26, 2018, 02:35:56 PM »
Interesting.

I'm over 75 pages in reading "The Island at the Center of the World" by Russell Shorto.

It is about the history of Dutch Manhattan, and a view of how it came to be.

Also, it is partially based on research being done by Charles Gehring who is director of the New Netherlands project, and has been in the process for over 30 years translating Dutch records from the era of the colony at the NY State Library in Albany.

Good stuff! :icon_cool:
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 05:20:41 PM by GamesPoet »
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #597 on: December 26, 2018, 03:17:17 PM »
My wife managed to introduce me to Terry Pratchett and his novels of the Guards.

We use to read aloud in the evening for each other. So far I have read Guards! Guards! and Men-at-Arms. We are more than halfway through Feet of Clay.

I love old and grumpy Captain Vimes. He is more interesting than Carrot, but Carrot is also interesting because he seems to be so simple and is most often simple. And EVERYONE likes Carrot. But he also have a very shrewd side when he feel it necessary to be so.
And Corporal Nobby Nobbs and Sergeant Fred Colon. What an intrepid duo! Or not. But I would not want to meet Nobby in a dark alley of Ankh Morpork and get a kick in the Nutts from his steel caped boot.

Spoiler alert! I almost cried when Cuddy died. I really loved how the relationship between him and Detritus evolved and then he fell in the line of duty.  :icon_cry:

And Angua really rock. A werewolf with attitude but with the heart in the right place. But do not piss her off.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #598 on: December 26, 2018, 03:19:55 PM »
I also bought and read Serentiy "No power in the īVerse". Really good. I loved how the images did the characters justice and how they really felt like they should feel and acted true to how one expected them to be, and Jayne still getting the best lines. Damn, I guess you cannot beat The Hero of Canton.  :icon_mrgreen:
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Gankom

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Re: What literature are you reading?
« Reply #599 on: December 26, 2018, 04:43:53 PM »
This is probably the first year I didn't get Pratchett for Christmas, but its because I'm swimming in other books. So I'm looking forward to reading a bunch of things. Currently I'm reading through a fantastic two part biography of Elvis. Its amazing what a freaking dweeb he was, and yet how he just exploded into popularity.

I've also got the new rivers of London book, a massive Jules Verne Omnibus and several books on Thousand and one Nights stories. Some are different versions of the tales (Including a Western & Arabic version) and some are more academic books based on the stories. Get hyped!