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Author Topic: 9th age Empire meta  (Read 5361 times)

Offline patsy02

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9th age Empire meta
« on: July 24, 2016, 04:41:17 AM »
What's the meta for 9th age Empire these days? I'm playing in a tournament in a couple of months and I'd like to not do terribly.

Last time I played Warhammer demigryph knights and steam tanks were first rate, greatswords and knights were second rate, and everything else was for masochists who hated winning games.

Does 9th age empire work more like it did before with useful detachments and playable infantry?
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 06:18:36 AM »
Its all over the place with what to take.

There is no net list.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 07:06:08 AM »
Characters are about the same. The Prelate on War Wagon seems to be an auto-include, and most often is the EoS general. Everyone agrees it's somewhat overpowered/undercosted for what it does. The dragon-riding Marshal option is considered not worth taking, for many reasons.

Core infantry is not able to deal with sizable hard-hitting units with good saves. Not big news, maybe. Be careful when you horde them and when you go for bus.

Hvy cavalry is rarely able to break sizable infantry blocks, even if the cavalry unit is big. The Spear rules also make cavalry in general suffer. If you liked to break your enemy with frontal cavalry charges, that's usually not working anymore. This is not just EoS, but hvy cavalry in general. Then again EoS and some other factions have Special or Rare hvy cavalry where the rider has two attacks. They're dangerous.

Empire Support unit rules (Detachments) suffer from the prevalence of deathstars who will win CR even without the rank bonuses. It's the same thing as in some previous editions: is it worth to bring a Support unit into the flank in order to disrupt the enemy, if the Support unit gets slaughtered? The utility of Support units in general is tied to the experience level of your opponent, just as it was in the previous editions. If your opponent knows how they work, he will spend some time & units to confront them, and you'll never get a supporting charge. Against inexperienced opponents they might be lethal.

Stand & Shoot for Support units is nice, but not different from previous editions. It's rarely very efficient. Although now EoS has the option of pistol-equipped Militia, which is a cheap and effective support unit. Some find it so effective they complain it's undercosted.

It's generally agreed that larger units of Flagellants are overpowered for their cost.

The performance of the STank is very different from the old. It only costs 230 pts now, but EoS players are still about 50/50 divided if it plays well or bad. Many competitive players still take it for unbreakable, cannon, and the CC hits. Many don't. The STank is far from an auto-include now.

EoS is a combined arms army with very potential synenergies. I find some units (Lt Infantry, for example), are really nice with the synenergies piled, but rather unimpressing 'naked'. As a result of the combined arms approach, EoS is likely not the best army in MSU or Horde style play. In these respects, nothing has changed.

-Z
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 08:02:30 AM »
Just what I was looking for.

Are standard missile units worth taking? As detachments or otherwise?
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 08:58:45 AM »
Just what I was looking for.

Are standard missile units worth taking? As detachments or otherwise?

The one with increased BS certainly is.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 12:44:43 PM »
Are standard missile units worth taking? As detachments or otherwise?

The one with increased BS certainly is.

This.

I always take a unit of Lt Infantry to house my Artificer. I usually take the Seasoned upgrade if I run a Marshal as the General. The Artificer gives them the extra Range order. With the order, even if the unit stays stationary most of the game, it gets to participate. Naturally, there's an artillery piece or two nearby that benefit from the Engineer rules. Without the artillery nearby, there's no point buying an Artificer for the Lt Infantry. And maybe no point taking Lt Infantry, when Pistol Militia works so well.

I like shooting Empire in this edition. It's not under- or overpowered, but it can participate more.

-Z
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Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 12:43:38 AM »
(( Zygmund,

Quote
Artificer. I usually take the Seasoned upgrade

Okay... me and my dumb sense of humor have to ask.  How do you "Season" your Artificer?  With some freshly ground black pepper, for that Spice Islands appeal?  What about oregano for something with a hint of the Mediterranean... or maybe some dill and lime juice, for those with a love of the Caribbean?

Um... yeah.  Me and my sense of humor. ))

Offline Warlord

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 04:34:25 AM »
I really hate the title 'Artificer'.

Surely Inventor or Architect or 'Machine Expert' or Machinist or 'Siege Engineer' would have been fine.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2016, 02:06:51 PM »
Don't understand why they didn't simply keep the 'Engineer'. It surely isn't GW IP.  :|

And I season my Artificer with a good dosis of gunpowder... tea... hahaha.  :evil:

-Z
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Offline Padre

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 04:13:35 PM »
I really hate the title 'Artificer'.

Surely Inventor or Architect or 'Machine Expert' or Machinist or 'Siege Engineer' would have been fine.

Or master gunner, or master/general of ordnance ...
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 09:06:19 PM »
Okay... me and my dumb sense of humor have to ask.  How do you "Season" your Artificer? 

By clothing him in saffron robes, and declaring him the second cumin of the Machine God.

Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 09:14:50 PM »
Quick question -- is it just me, or is the griffon even worse now than it was? Monstrous Beast with a rider becomes Monstrous Cavalry. The monstrous cavalry uses one profile, and when taking wounds:

Quote
Use the Monsterís Wounds. When the Monster reaches 0 Wounds, remove the whole model as a casualty.

In other words, the marshal on griffon now has a pathetic 4 wounds, gets no armour or ward save, and it only has toughness 5, and when it dies, you lose the general with it. That's paying 100 points for putting your general on a liability. Why even bother with magic items when everyone's just gonna kill the griffon anyway?

I've always wanted to use the griffon, but it's been shit for 16 years now.

Edit: Hang on! I was confusing the ridden monster and monstrous cavalry profiles.

Quote
Armour and Saves Use the best Armour Save, Ward Save and Regeneration available on a single part.A
riderís Armour Save can be increased by the Mountís Protection and Barding.
Does this mean the marshal + griffon gets 4 wounds, toughness 5, and the armour save of the rider?


Edit edit: Also, can our BSB take and use a shield now? Or a great weapon?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 09:38:05 PM by patsy02 »
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 09:20:05 AM »
Quick question -- is it just me, or is the griffon even worse now than it was?

Quote
Armour and Saves Use the best Armour Save, Ward Save and Regeneration available on a single part.A
riderís Armour Save can be increased by the Mountís Protection and Barding.
Does this mean the marshal + griffon gets 4 wounds, toughness 5, and the armour save of the rider?

That's correct.

Still, General on Griffon is not generally considered a good choice.


Quote
Edit edit: Also, can our BSB take and use a shield now? Or a great weapon?

Yes.

The game has a sort of scale now, and obviously one r&f figure represents more than one fighter only.

-Z
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 09:47:08 AM »
Thanks!

Quote
Still, General on Griffon is not generally considered a good choice.

Yeah, it doesn't look great. But at least it's not just giving away points.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2016, 05:24:02 PM »
Swordsman blocks supporting swordsman blocks with the buff wagon that gives distracting in a 6" aura is OP as shit. Everything needs 5's to hit. Everything. Combined with the hex from wilderness that gives the enemy a further -1 to hit I had a unit of 20 swordsmen take a charge from 6 ogre tribesmen with a BSB and not only hold them up for three turns, but whittled the unit to nearly nothing just from average rolls. Parry is broken righy now, and parry plus distracting is monstrous.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2016, 10:58:13 PM »
Nice. Might have to get one.

Played my first 9th age game today VS Ogre Kingdoms. List:

Marshal on griffon, strategist, plate armour, +2 armour shield, lance, white cloak
lv2 alchemist wizard with ring of fire
BSB with plate, shield, anti-fear/terror banner
Master artificer with rifle

30 swordsmen, full command
10 free company, skirmish, pistols

30 swordsmen, full command
10 free company, skirmish, bows

40 spearmen, full command, shields
10 hand gunners
10 hand gunners

Mortar
Cannon
Helblaster

26 flagellants

5 knights, champ/mus
5 knights, champ/mus
5 reiters, brace of pistols, heavy armour
5 reiters, brace of pistols, heavy armour

2500 pts

A few things learnt:

Gunpowder shooting is decent against ogres.

Helblaster is excellent, especially next to an engineer.

Engineer with hochland long rifle is perfectly useable.

Cannon hitting on 4+ is a bit too inconsistent for my tastes.

Pistoliers are good and cheap now.

Flagellants are good and cheap now.

Most importantly, empire infantry is no longer overpriced shit-tier fodder, and they're made viable by potent chaff.

Powerful chaff is amazing against death stars.

Marshal on griffon with strategist perk = 18" orders everywhere. Guy I played had no artillery and almost no shooting, so I might not get away with using him the next time I field him. I could get rid of him, but the 18" dual orders were very useful, and he's not bad in combat. I think I need the same amount of chaff in order to make the infantry approach work. Not sure where to go next. I want more of everything.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2016, 11:36:09 PM »
Your marshal would not benefit from any of his armor items, nor the ward save or fireborn benefit of The White Cloak since it specifies "The Wearer" rather than the "wearer's model". All saves are the monster's saves, which is why monsters SUCK.

Page 67 of the Rule Book:
Quote
Armour and Saves Use the saves of the Monster. Any armour equipment worn by the rider or its
Ward/Regeneration Save have no effect, unless noted otherwise. Ridden Monsters
may only have Innate Defence armour type.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2016, 11:52:15 PM »
That's Dumb.
I was reading the rules and armybooks last night, and its just so frustrating.
9th age was an iterative improvement on 8th, but 8th was flawed to start, so still a bunch of flaws and poor design choices to start.
There is so much opportunity, and its just not taken because they are sticking to army choices and rules that existed previously instead of expanding and changing and growing.

I much prefer something new from scratch instead of having the same old problems repeated. I would prefer new and different problems.  :closed-eyes:
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 11:55:54 PM by Warlord »
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2016, 01:45:16 AM »
That's Dumb.
I was reading the rules and armybooks last night, and its just so frustrating.
9th age was an iterative improvement on 8th, but 8th was flawed to start, so still a bunch of flaws and poor design choices to start.
There is so much opportunity, and its just not taken because they are sticking to army choices and rules that existed previously instead of expanding and changing and growing.

I much prefer something new from scratch instead of having the same old problems repeated. I would prefer new and different problems.  :closed-eyes:

Well, these are new and different. Instead of people bitching about how cannons are broken, they are now bitching about how parry is broken.

I think ridden monsters should be multipart models like in 6th and 7th editions. I miss shooting the rider off and the monster deciding to protect the body. There's a flavor to that you just can't get any more.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2016, 02:30:04 AM »
People bitched about parry in 6th / 7th ed too.
It's what made swordsmen a much more superior choice over the others.
It's what made tzeentch chaos warriors with sword and board OP.
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2016, 02:43:48 AM »
Parry is not broken.
You can't hit a unit with parry on better than a 4+ BEFORE modifiers. It basically nullifies an opponents better Weapon Skill.

So if you can get extra +1's to hit then you can still hit them on 3's and 2's.
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2016, 03:13:23 AM »
Parry is not broken.
You can't hit a unit with parry on better than a 4+ BEFORE modifiers. It basically nullifies an opponents better Weapon Skill.

So if you can get extra +1's to hit then you can still hit them on 3's and 2's.

It IS broken.

Quote
You can't hit a unit with parry on better than a 4+ BEFORE modifiers.

That's broke. Whole units? That's how my shitty 110pt swordsmen block held up a 300pt unit and character for three turns. That's broken.
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Offline Naitsabes

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2016, 04:32:20 AM »
It basically nullifies an opponents better Weapon Skill.
don't want to get into that 'broken or not' discussion. but, the part I don't like about the parry rule is just that. WS is already the orphan stat nobody cares much about compared to strength and toughness. This makes it worse. Poor chaos warriors. Surely, it must be possible to come up with a better parry rule?
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2016, 12:40:21 PM »
It basically nullifies an opponents better Weapon Skill.
don't want to get into that 'broken or not' discussion. but, the part I don't like about the parry rule is just that. WS is already the orphan stat nobody cares much about compared to strength and toughness. This makes it worse. Poor chaos warriors. Surely, it must be possible to come up with a better parry rule?

They're talking about going to a non-stackable 6+ ward save. Like 8th but not making Tzeentch warriors unkillable.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2016, 01:35:33 PM »
That's broke. Whole units? That's how my shitty 110pt swordsmen block held up a 300pt unit and character for three turns. That's broken.
Well, your 110 point swordsmen, and a minimum 300 point wizard lord on magic cart. Maybe it's worth 300 points?


Your marshal would not benefit from any of his armor items, nor the ward save or fireborn benefit of The White Cloak since it specifies "The Wearer" rather than the "wearer's model". All saves are the monster's saves, which is why monsters SUCK.

Page 67 of the Rule Book:
Quote
Armour and Saves Use the saves of the Monster. Any armour equipment worn by the rider or its
Ward/Regeneration Save have no effect, unless noted otherwise. Ridden Monsters
may only have Innate Defence armour type.

No, but that's the ridden monster, which is what I got confused too and led me to believe that the griffon was pure trash. The great griffon is a monstrous beast(Sonnstahl book). A monstrous beast, when ridden, becomes monstrous cavalry(p.65 main rules). Monstrous cavalry gets the following combined profile rule for armour saves on page 66, not the ridden monster combined profile on page 67:

Quote
Armour and Saves Use the best Armour Save, Ward Save and Regeneration available on a single part.A
riderís Armour Save can be increased by the Mountís Protection and Barding

This means the griffon+marshal gets to use the marshal's armour save, right?

I much prefer something new from scratch instead of having the same old problems repeated. I would prefer new and different problems.  :closed-eyes:
I'm not so sure. It might take some grinding to get rid of the old bad habits of sloppy GW rulemakers, but given continuous iterations based on feedback they should be able to get there, right?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 01:53:12 PM by patsy02 »
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.