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Author Topic: 9th age Empire meta  (Read 5549 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2016, 01:43:47 PM »
It basically nullifies an opponents better Weapon Skill.
don't want to get into that 'broken or not' discussion. but, the part I don't like about the parry rule is just that. WS is already the orphan stat nobody cares much about compared to strength and toughness. This makes it worse. Poor chaos warriors. Surely, it must be possible to come up with a better parry rule?

They're talking about going to a non-stackable 6+ ward save. Like 8th but not making Tzeentch warriors unkillable.

See, that's a crap work around.
They are just using a flawed staring point and not deviating enough to fix it.
Why do we need a Parry rule?
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Offline Calisson

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2016, 02:17:42 PM »
I was reading the rules and armybooks last night, and its just so frustrating.
9th age was an iterative improvement on 8th, but 8th was flawed to start, so still a bunch of flaws and poor design choices to start.
There is so much opportunity, and its just not taken because they are sticking to army choices and rules that existed previously instead of expanding and changing and growing.

I much prefer something new from scratch instead of having the same old problems repeated. I would prefer new and different problems.  :closed-eyes:
The immense desire from the community was to get WH8 + fixes. Those who wanted something totally different already had AoS, KoW, Warmachine/hordes... At least, T9A allowed players to use most of their model collections.
Now, with the experience of V1, there is a V2 coming soon (months, not year). That will be one last significant evolution, followed by years of stability.

Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2016, 02:41:04 PM »
It basically nullifies an opponents better Weapon Skill.
don't want to get into that 'broken or not' discussion. but, the part I don't like about the parry rule is just that. WS is already the orphan stat nobody cares much about compared to strength and toughness. This makes it worse. Poor chaos warriors. Surely, it must be possible to come up with a better parry rule?

They're talking about going to a non-stackable 6+ ward save. Like 8th but not making Tzeentch warriors unkillable.

See, that's a crap work around.
They are just using a flawed staring point and not deviating enough to fix it.
Why do we need a Parry rule?
To make hand weapon + shield a useful combo, I suppose. Parry used to be just +1 armour save in close combat once upon a time. That was alright. Plus it's a good way to make cheap/bad troops more useful, which is often sorely needed. HW/Shield is a defensive combo, but if all you get for it with light armour is a 5+ save and nothing else, you're not terribly defensive.
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2016, 03:15:26 PM »
That's broke. Whole units? That's how my shitty 110pt swordsmen block held up a 300pt unit and character for three turns. That's broken.
Well, your 110 point swordsmen, and a minimum 300 point wizard lord on magic cart. Maybe it's worth 300 points?
The buff wagons can be taken alone without a wizard lord. They are 140 points, rather than 130 when an archwizard buys them.
Quote


Your marshal would not benefit from any of his armor items, nor the ward save or fireborn benefit of The White Cloak since it specifies "The Wearer" rather than the "wearer's model". All saves are the monster's saves, which is why monsters SUCK.

Page 67 of the Rule Book:
Quote
Armour and Saves Use the saves of the Monster. Any armour equipment worn by the rider or its
Ward/Regeneration Save have no effect, unless noted otherwise. Ridden Monsters
may only have Innate Defence armour type.

No, but that's the ridden monster, which is what I got confused too and led me to believe that the griffon was pure trash. The great griffon is a monstrous beast(Sonnstahl book). A monstrous beast, when ridden, becomes monstrous cavalry(p.65 main rules). Monstrous cavalry gets the following combined profile rule for armour saves on page 66, not the ridden monster combined profile on page 67:

Quote
Armour and Saves Use the best Armour Save, Ward Save and Regeneration available on a single part.A
riderís Armour Save can be increased by the Mountís Protection and Barding

This means the griffon+marshal gets to use the marshal's armour save, right?

Holy smackerels.  :icon_eek:
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2016, 04:11:29 PM »
Yeah, it's not so bad. It would be unusable without the rider's armour save.

Quote
The buff wagons can be taken alone without a wizard lord. They are 140 points, rather than 130 when an archwizard buys them.
Oh. I definitely want one then. Although, if I'm getting one, I'm not sure which combo to choose:

lv2 with fire ring, separate magic cart @ 125 + 140 = 265pts
OR
lv3 arch wizard on magic cart @ 175 + 130 = 305pts

The latter sounds like more value for the points, but might make him terribly vulnerable. Unmodified fire ball is pretty trash. Does the 130 magic cart points count towards the lord allowance? I'd assume so.

Another thing I like about this edition: The adoption of D3 with +i modifiers here and there as replacement for a plain D6, which is far too random. It should be that way for more things in general. The fireball for example could be two D3 hits instead of one D6, or maybe D3+3 or +2 hits. Anything that allows you to take calculated risks is better.


Edit: Another something else:
Support, parent units / Heavy, light infantry

Heavy infantry comes in units of 20. Does this mean a heavy infantry support unit has to be 20 strong?

If yes, how large does the parent unit have to be in order to take a 20 strong detachment?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 04:20:19 PM by patsy02 »
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2016, 07:28:52 PM »
There are no detachments any more at all. If a unit of heavy infantry is 20 models it is a support unit. If it is 21+ it is a parent unit. That's it. ANY support unit within 6" of a parent unit can use the support rules, and all support units are insignificant to parent units (but not to anything else). I have been fielding two units of 20 swordsmen with full command as support units.

Light infantry is ALWAYS support units, regardless of size. Militia are support if they are 20 or less, but do not become parent units if they are 21+. They just become regular units.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 07:34:24 PM by Cannonofdoom »
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2016, 11:25:30 AM »
Nice.
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2016, 02:23:06 PM »
Never use cannons. Always use volley guns.


let's do math. To start with, there's the chance of misfire. Any gunpowder weapon that misfires has a 50% chance of being rendered useless for the rest of the game and a 1/6 chance of being killed outright, so misfires are terrible. A cannon has a 1/6 chance of misfiring every time it shoots. A volley gun has a 1/24 chance of misfiring. A cannon that is not shooting at a large target will hit 50% of its shots. This mean you will get three hits on average every game. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Assume the target is a large target, and flying, the ideal cannon target. The cannon still hits only 1/3 of the time, and averages (barring the roll of a 1 to wound) 4 wounds. So over the course of a game you can expect to kill a single monster with a cannon. Okay, that's worth 100 points. A volley gun shooting that same target, let's assume long range, will average 20 shots, hitting on 5's so 6-7 hits, wounding on 4's (unless your opponent is fielding a dragon) so 3 wounds. Average is 18 wounds over those same six turns. Let's talk units. Cannon hits three times over the course of the game, averages 3 inches on the bounce, so 4-6 20mm bases, or 4-5 25mm bases. You then have a 1/6 chance of failing to wound each model, and must kill each model to get a chance to wound the other models. Let's assume you roll well. You kill 5 models every time your cannon hits. Total of 15 on average the whole game. Volley gun averages 20 shots, again assuming long range that's 6 hits, and against most infantry you're wounding on 2's, but some will require 3's. 6 hits for six turns is 36 total hits, so either 30 or 24 wounds, respectively.

Anything that's multiwound, like ogres, the numbers are even better, since not only will the cannon hit fewer models, it will have a much higher chance of not killing the first model hit!

Cannons are garbage. Volley guns are best.
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2016, 06:09:56 PM »
My math is bad, but you get the idea.  :engel:
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2016, 09:54:33 PM »
Bad maths indeed.  :evil:


Never use cannons. Always use volley guns.

Volley guns never hit anything beyond 24". Empire Cannons have range 72". They have different roles. Volley guns are short range all-arounders, cannons are there to counter monsters and enemy war machines. Volley gun simply doesn't do what a cannon does. And vice versa.


Quote
let's do math. To start with, there's the chance of misfire. Any gunpowder weapon that misfires has a 50% chance of being rendered useless for the rest of the game and a 1/6 chance of being killed outright, so misfires are terrible. A cannon has a 1/6 chance of misfiring every time it shoots. A volley gun has a 1/24 chance of misfiring.

Did you read the cannon and volley gun rules before writing this? Especially, did you read the Misfire Table, Page 74 of the 9th Age v1.0.0 basic rule book?

The chance for Breakdown (useless for the rest of the game) is 1/3. Not 50% but 33.3 %.

In the 9th Age, apart from some rare and dangerous artillery pieces, artillery is never 'killed outright' by the misfire table. Contrary to previous editions, misfire doesn't have a chance of autodestroying artillery, so doesn't give points to the enemy.

The chance of Volley Gun misfiring is 7.4 %. Yes, that's less than the cannon 16.7 % (1/6), but significantly more likely than 1/24 (ca. 4 %) would be.


Quote
A cannon that is not shooting at a large target will hit 50% of its shots. This means you will get three hits on average every game. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Assume the target is a large target, and flying, the ideal cannon target. The cannon still hits only 1/3 of the time, and averages (barring the roll of a 1 to wound) 4 wounds. So over the course of a game you can expect to kill a single monster with a cannon. Okay, that's worth 100 points.

A cannon that is not shooting at a large target will hit 50 % at short range, and 33.3 % at long range. Assuming it's not used by an Artificer (Engineer). It's hard to say if the enemy comes into close range or not. Many players are afraid of cannons, so often the enemy doesn't come close enough, so 33.3 % or two hits is likely.

This still has a real threat of removing more than 100 pts value from the enemy. Few of ordinary Empire units can hope for 100 % or better payback. It's a gamble, as games often are, but a gamble worth taking. Especially for Empire, which has problems to deal with enemy monsters.


Large makes hitting easier, so doesn't reduce the probability of hitting! At close range, you hit 66.7 % of the time, at long range, you hit 50 % of the time. Not 1/3 (33.3 %).

There are many single model multiwound flying units in the game. Cannons work superbly against them, at ranges much longer than Volley Guns can ever achieve.


Quote
A volley gun shooting that same target, let's assume long range, will average 20 shots, hitting on 5's so 6-7 hits, wounding on 4's (unless your opponent is fielding a dragon) so 3 wounds. Average is 18 wounds over those same six turns.

To start with, the long range of the Volley Gun is 12.1"-24". At this range, the cannon always shoots at short range.

At long range, a Volley Gun without an Artificer (Engineer) that doesn't misfire can hope for 5-6 hits. Overall, 5 hits is the average. Strength 5 let's you wound T4 guys on 4's. Cannons usually target T5/T6 monsters or T7 war machines. So the comparison is weak and/or partial. I'd say against typical cannon targets the Empire Volley Gun can hope for 1-3 Wounds at long range, and that assumes that they come within 24". The average Wound total over 6 turns is perhaps 12. Strength 5 and AP (-2) may still leave a chance for armour save on a 6. So it could be 10 wounds.

But in general, getting enemy monsters or war machines within 24" of your Volley Gun is very, very unlikely. If they come that close, they usually charge into combat, preventing the use of ranged weapons against them. Thus, even if a cannon can hope to hit a large target only twice or thrice in a game, dealing on the average 6-9 Wounds (8-12 against flyers) over the whole game, a Volley Gun probably rarely has the chance to even try.


Quote
Let's talk units.

This part was better. I agree Cannons just don't work against units, and I think the feeling of the game is flawed there.

Then again, the 9th Age designers really wanted to profile different troop types and units, so having clear and different targets for cannons and volley guns probably goes along the design intent.


Another interesting comparison is Volley Guns to Handgunners (for the similar point cost). Volley Gun is always more efficient, but you need to consider the reliability of the Handgunners (no misfires), and their much larger total Wounds. They can even do some cc fighting, and can carry a standard to play the objective game. Again, I'd say the two unit choices have a clearly different role on the battlefield, and you should choice your unit according to what you want to do. Neither is universally better than the other.


-Z
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 10:04:47 PM by Zygmund »
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2016, 10:39:02 PM »
This was a hastily thrown together attempt to knock some sense into members of the 9th age forum who still hold that two cannons are mandatory, and volley guns are to be left at home. I copied and pasted it here in a frenzy of fury.  :biggriin: I know I messed up the misfire table. Even so, your response is much better than theirs, which was: "All the tournament lists use two cannons and almost none of them use volley guns, therefore cannons are the best thing ever."

Don't even get me started on how the 9th Age "Tournament Meta" completely ignores the amazing support unit rules, or how every EoS player on the 9th Age forums thinks only the Fight In Extra Ranks order is useful.  :icon_rolleyes:  :eusa_wall:
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2016, 06:56:07 AM »
I always take a Volley Gun.

But I've also enjoyed playing two cannons.

When I have my model ready, I'll try 1 VG, 1 Cannon, 1 Mortar, 1 STank.

On the 9th Age forums, you should pay attention to who writes - and who doesn't.
1) There are one-topic whiners and list copy-pasters who have little understanding of what they're saying.
2) There are intelligent guys who only play for win within the ETC concept, so answer only that in mind.
3) There are experienced players who look at the game and the list in the total concept of game & fun

Very often there's an age gap to be seen, at least with the 1st and 3rd type of posters. And the 3rd type of posters usually grow tired fast and don't reply often.

Thus, the 9th Age forum discussions are often one-sided and heated. As can be awaited on a forum with ca. 4000 posting members. Haven't checked the forum for a while.

-Z
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2016, 01:48:37 PM »
Yeah, I'm just going to stick with posting here. I have a friend who's big in the 9th Age community so I was trying to get into it to support him, but I am not going to yell at people to try to get my opinion listened to. They accused me of trolling because I don't like cannons! Hateful.

I just don't think cannons are more useful than volley guns or mortars, or even rocket batteries, which if they hit actually CAN kill a big bad monster in a single shot.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2016, 02:07:54 PM »
Quote
Never use cannons. Always use volley guns.
I'm inclined to agree, especially judging from their respective performances last game. Having to hit gimps the great cannon.

There's some overlap, but they do have diverging roles. It's just that the volley gun is highly potent against a large number of unit types, while the cannon is more situational and less reliable.
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Offline grimgorgoroth

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2016, 08:52:22 PM »
At 2500 points, I use a Prelate on a war altar with locket of sunna, armour of Volund and dusk stone and an arcane engine to back up my 50 man, full command, helberdier unit, flanked by 2 units of flagellants.
2 lvl 2 light wizards one with dispel scroll and one with book of arcane power,
 a BSB tanked out to survive in the helberdier unit to give orders (I usually use the fight in extra rank rule).
 A 6 man unit of electrol cavalry with banner (to help capture secondary objectives) and 3, 10 man militant skirmishers (light wizards bunker in one behind my lines)
2 cannons
1 mortar
1 Stank

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2016, 09:42:57 PM »
At 2500 points, I use a Prelate on a war altar with locket of sunna, armour of Volund and dusk stone and an arcane engine to back up my 50 man, full command, helberdier unit, flanked by 2 units of flagellants.
2 lvl 2 light wizards one with dispel scroll and one with book of arcane power,
 a BSB tanked out to survive in the helberdier unit to give orders (I usually use the fight in extra rank rule).
 A 6 man unit of electrol cavalry with banner (to help capture secondary objectives) and 3, 10 man militant skirmishers (light wizards bunker in one behind my lines)
2 cannons
1 mortar
1 Stank

I see this list all the time and I just shake my head. I hate it. You're stuck in 8th edition. That list is fine, if boring, but you won't outgrind dwarfs, and I know at least one Ogre player who would salivate at such an easy target. How do you deal with blocks of spear elves? How do you defend against Chaos Warriors? How do you dance around monster heavy lists? What do you do against ambushers? I mean, it's all well and good to just line up 100 guys and walk forward, but then why not just play AoS? Why don't you take advantage of the amazing Support Unit Rules? Have you read them?!
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Offline grimgorgoroth

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2016, 10:16:26 PM »
Wow, chill out dude., for starters this is my league list made to win.

I have beaten dwarf, Equitaine, pestilance daemons and chaos warriors with this list. I drew against Sylvan elves

I can out grind dwarf by first softening them up with magic missiles and shooting, then buffing up my units with the wagons.

Against ogres I chaff up their death stars with my militia and shoot  with cannons and magic missiles.

Spear elves get the mortar treatment.

Chaos warriors, after softening them up with magic and cannons fight my flagellants and die but are themselves take them down enough to be dealt with.

Monster heavy lists get the 2 cannons plus the Stank cannon in the face.

Ambushers, I line up my militia men all along the back line and so they can't come up from behind and bum rush me.

I can't line up 100 guys and go forward because every one has to stay close to my War Altar and Arcane Engine. Don't insult me with the AoS word!

So, tactic is, I have to stay close together, stay back and shoot and magic for a few turns then move forward and try to kill what's left.

I have read the support rules, my militant support my main block of helbadiers with their stand and shoot rule.

I'd like to try a prince on a dragon one day for a fun list thou


Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2016, 10:45:05 PM »
So you only play Ogres that run a single deathstar? How did you handle the dwarf king in 40 Deep Guard? Which monster heavy list let your cannons shoot their monsters? Was he stupid? Why did Chaos Warriors let you cast spells and shoot their units? Was HE stupid? Sounds like you have an easy time of it, then. All the best!
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Offline Warlord

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2016, 08:06:18 AM »
That's a bit harsh. To be fair, his gaming buddies could be using 8th style lists too. It will take some time for the entire meta to shift.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2016, 08:07:06 AM »
I just don't think cannons are more useful than volley guns or mortars, or even rocket batteries, which if they hit actually CAN kill a big bad monster in a single shot.

There's some overlap, but they do have diverging roles. It's just that the volley gun is highly potent against a large number of unit types, while the cannon is more situational and less reliable.

I think this shows that diversity is back into the game. Which is exactly the point of making T9A out of the 8th, especially for Empire.

The reason I'm in T9A.

-Z
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2016, 11:38:59 AM »
That's a bit harsh. To be fair, his gaming buddies could be using 8th style lists too. It will take some time for the entire meta to shift.

I've been too full of vinegar lately.  :oops: Apologies to grimgorgoroth. I'm unfairly venting my frustrations with the 9th Age Empire community at large on you. I'm sorry.
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Offline Midaski

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2016, 01:39:43 PM »

Always bearing of what was most important: Brotherhood and a game of gentlemen that has been maintained.
Helping, rectifying errors, holding tournaments, even lending miniatures to the other player.

All worth it with a cold beer with your mates after (sometimes during LOL) the game to discuss the match ...

This wonderful game called IX age.




It sounds to me like our South American members have exactly the right sort of attitude - Midaski approves

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Offline grimgorgoroth

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2016, 07:11:22 PM »
Thanks Midaski, our community is not so big (about 30 players) so we try to treat each other well, our club in Chile wants to branch out to the other groups in South America and start to hold continental tournaments, nothing as big as ETC but you have to start somewhere. 

Here the meta is varied, for example me and another empire player have the highest winning streak in the community and they say that Empire is OP hahah. :-P

 It's not that our beloved empire is Over Powered it's just that we are better generals than most, we read about tactics study our own books and our enemies. That's what I like about the 9th Age. It's not a pay to win game, this is because the 9th Age is not a miniature company. It's not trying to sell you anything. Now all armies are more balanced and now for example Beast Heard (Beastmen) and Undying Dynasties (Tomb King) are very good to play with

I consider the Vermin Swarm (Skaven) and Infernal Dwarfs (Chaos Dwarfs) armies to be OP or at least better than the other books, with more options and synergies.

Offline mottdon

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2016, 07:18:39 PM »
My group has all but dried up here in Alabama.  The guys I used to meet with don't want to try 9th BECAUSE it's more balanced.  There aren't as many loop holes that they can exploit.  I usually let things go pretty easily, but not these guys.  WAAC players. 

I have a small contingent of good friends who take it leisurely though and we still get together and play a few games here and there, but still mostly stick to 8th because that's what we know and like.

Offline patsy02

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Re: 9th age Empire meta
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2016, 04:21:03 AM »
Quote
The guys I used to meet with don't want to try 9th BECAUSE it's more balanced.
:icon_lol:

That's pretty sad.

It used to be useless trash, but I've had some very positive experiences using long rifles now. S5 armour piercing multiple wounds 2 with BS5 is awesome. Considering taking multiple engineers/champions with long rifles.

Quote
At 2500 points, I use a Prelate on a war altar with locket of sunna, armour of Volund and dusk stone and an arcane engine to back up my 50 man, full command, helberdier unit, flanked by 2 units of flagellants.
2 lvl 2 light wizards one with dispel scroll and one with book of arcane power,
 a BSB tanked out to survive in the helberdier unit to give orders (I usually use the fight in extra rank rule).
 A 6 man unit of electrol cavalry with banner (to help capture secondary objectives) and 3, 10 man militant skirmishers (light wizards bunker in one behind my lines)
2 cannons
1 mortar
1 Stank

This looks like a perfectly viable list imo. I think you probably need two cannons for redundancy if you want to get results.

I miss the days when we guessed range. That was one of my favourite aspects of the game.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 04:05:36 PM by patsy02 »
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