home

Author Topic: Anthropology, Archaeology, and Ancestral Hominids ...  (Read 1293 times)

Offline GamesPoet

  • Posts: 13731
  • Happy Summer! : )
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2018, 11:04:00 PM »
Most soft sciences are controlled by what I call the old guard. The archeological theories are so burned in the academia mind anyone that varies from the "this is fact scenarios" risks being black balled. This is not coming from myself but many professors and those who have been kicked out of academic circles ( so to speak) opinions. You can find this mentality in many sciences now days, unfortunately.
I disagree, and have no idea where this is coming from.  I regularly and routinely see science adapting as new information comes forward.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline zak

  • Posts: 6230
  • Raging Viking
    • Zachary Moss
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2018, 11:55:00 PM »
Most soft sciences are controlled by what I call the old guard. The archeological theories are so burned in the academia mind anyone that varies from the "this is fact scenarios" risks being black balled. This is not coming from myself but many professors and those who have been kicked out of academic circles ( so to speak) opinions. You can find this mentality in many sciences now days, unfortunately.
I disagree, and have no idea where this is coming from.  I regularly and routinely see science adapting as new information comes forward.

Soft sciences I.E. psychology, sociology, anthropology etc. These sciences are also easily manipulated for political purposes. Like my biology professor stated before he retired, " When politics and science mix two thing happen, bad science and worst politics".   
"Fight your foes in the field, nor be burnt in your house!"

Offline GamesPoet

  • Posts: 13731
  • Happy Summer! : )
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2018, 02:01:01 AM »
Even your own quote of your previous statement specifically mentions archaeology.  And I disagree.  And now the statement shifts in the direction of soft sciences being manipulated for political purposes which doesn't seem to be in reference to the previous quote, while this drift towards politics in this thread seems inappropriate, and I suggest go set up another thread to review such political mumbo jumbo, and then we can piss at each other if we choose, instead of letting your seepage spread into this one.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 9331
  • Sydney, Australia
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2018, 02:43:54 AM »
Most soft sciences are

He did start his quote about soft sciences. Perhaps the question you need to ask zak is whether he considered archealogy a soft science.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Midaski

  • Sunny Sussex, England
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11391
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2018, 03:20:53 PM »
Archeology - isn't that gardening?  :engel:
Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Posts: 6232
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
    • Mattiknifes blog
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2018, 08:32:49 PM »
How can you call investigating deadly traps and fighting nazos on motorcyckles SOFT!?
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline zak

  • Posts: 6230
  • Raging Viking
    • Zachary Moss
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2018, 09:04:54 PM »
How can you call investigating deadly traps and fighting nazos on motorcyckles SOFT!?

haha ok got me there  :blush:
"Fight your foes in the field, nor be burnt in your house!"

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

  • His Royal Highness
  • Posts: 3840
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2018, 09:50:29 PM »
Archaeology and Anthropology are not governed by political agenda!  Its the funding that is! I have found (from first hand experience) that when they draw up the grant requests they will often phrase things to get the academic politics (mind you this is academia so it has their own cutthroat politics!) to be in their favor.  When they actually do win their grant and perform the research and dig, they post what they find without political agenda as now they just present raw data, not unlike any other scientific field (even the hard sciences go through this whole rigmarole!).  They try to piece together what they found to better understand the material culture from whence the artifacts come from as impartially as possible.  After all in the Anthro-sciences context is everything. So where you found it, what state it is in, what existing pieces does it resemble, what cultural significance from the period is it, etc. are all taken into account when cataloging finds.  The science is there on what it is and what it resembles but to actually bend it towards a political agenda is not up to the archaeologist/anthropologist but the other parties that want to further their own agenda.

I would highly recommend the book about the Kennewick man (I forgot the exact one I read during my stint as an archaeologist) but it illustrates this perfectly.  To sum it up as best I can an archaeologist found some human remains of a Native American (just a skull if I remember correctly).  He made an off handed comment that based on the shape of the skull it looked like it could belong to Captain Picard.  People went nuts over it trying to claim the remains.  The Native American tribes said they should have possession as it belonged to their ancestral burial grounds.  The Scientific community said it should belong to them as it will further knowledge of history in that area.  A white supremacist group said it should belong to them as it proved their theory that Aryans traveled the world and this was proof. The list continues as different groups came out of the wood work to claim the skull belong to them and proved their ideology!  People will often bend even hard science their way to further a political agenda by interpreting raw data the way they wish to further their own ends.  That is why it is important to know the source of the data and whether the source is reputable and how to read the data.  Its why college really cracks down on research papers and their sources.  The idea is to teach you, the student, how to find reputable sources and draw rational conclusions.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Posts: 6232
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
    • Mattiknifes blog
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2018, 11:34:30 AM »
You nailed it, Patsy.

In Sweden some theoretical archaeologists have tried to be more "relevant" and in some museums the need to make exhibitions that are relevant to the present society is pushed.
But there is a countercurrent among archaeologists that is getting stronger and stronger.

And still, the actual excavation and reports of data is not compromized. They have to be done and collected in a certain manners.
It is when you come to the interpretations of the data you see politics creeping into the writing of some.
But as long as the data have been collected and reported as per standards procedure it can always be revisited.

There was one very controversial archaeologist who put up an exhibition at a library presenting an interpretation of a woven band as containing the word Allah. She had used present day muslims on the streets as her reference. Even islamic scholars went through the roof! It was clear that she had broken almost every principle of source critisim and cherry picked what supported her wild idea.

A few ultra post-modernists defended her but the large archeological community was furious. It was ballantly obvious that she chased political points. In the end, she defended saying she was a textile artists and artists have freedom it was not intended as facts.
Problem is people see what too all extent is a scientific presentation and see it as a presentation of facts.

I bet she counted on this mechanism to support the cause of integration. But I doubt she expected to meet so much attention and coming up against a professor in Islamic art from Texas!
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline patsy02

  • Posts: 5509
  • Moderator in charge of Gender Equality (Honorary)
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2018, 05:26:24 PM »
Quote
You nailed it, Patsy.

Not sure what I nailed this time, but thanks m8.

Also, I remember that farce. It's got multiple tiers of idiocy.

1. The sheer number of gullible and/or ideologically mince-brained media outlets who repeated some very obviously suspicious "findings" without a shred of criticism.
2. Legions of twitter twats who ate that shit raw not knowing it was essentially a bare-faced lie.
3. The researcher abusing her position and authority to make a bare-faced lie.
4. Corrections by the professional and the well-researched being lambasted as racist whining.
5. The phenomenon where a lie travels halfway around the world before the truth ties its shoelaces means that an unknown but large numbers of readers globally now think vikings were totally into islam.
6. The credulous enthusiastically and en masse bearing down on this minute sliver of fabricated evidence betrays an insecurity and desperation about the topic that was already fairly transparent.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 05:41:30 PM by patsy02 »
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Posts: 6232
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
    • Mattiknifes blog
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2018, 08:27:02 PM »
She is one damn slippery customer. Basically all textile archaeologists and historians questioned it. The problem for her interpretation was that while the find was not well known among the general public it was among the textile archaeologists and Viking re-enactors. And among us it was like...Wait a minute, that looks...fishy. The thing is some of the patterns she interpretate as saying Allah etc are pretty common on tablet woven bands. Truth is they appear on a 6th century band from Norway. Like 100 years before Muhammad.

And the Islamic alphabet she used as inspiration is not known before the 12th century. Does it mean that it was created in Sweden?

The library that hosted the exhibition did remove the textiles in the end. It was clear they had trusted that Annika Larsson knew what she did. After all, librarians are not specialists. But when enough textile archaeologists contacted them and explained the basics, the realized they had been played.
The woman is a bitch. She cannot handle critique at all
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 8826
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2018, 09:09:25 PM »
One can add here the alleged female Viking warrior from the Birka burial site in Sweden, so prominent in the media Sep 2017.

On a more general note: all scientists are influenced by their ideological preconceptions. However, those preconceptions are quite obviously less of an influence on ideas of the composition of stars than of societies. I have noticed in the past that re-appraisals of historic events like the demise of civilisations are often influenced by what are thought to be the current "hot issues." When historians and archaelogists are tempted to educate contempories by lessons of history, that usually shapes their view of the actual evidence (e.g. the different ideas about the demise of the Easter Island population: climate change, class warfare, ecological over-consumption, "Western" colonialism....).
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline zak

  • Posts: 6230
  • Raging Viking
    • Zachary Moss
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2018, 10:55:08 PM »
One can add here the alleged female Viking warrior from the Birka burial site in Sweden, so prominent in the media Sep 2017.

On a more general note: all scientists are influenced by their ideological preconceptions. However, those preconceptions are quite obviously less of an influence on ideas of the composition of stars than of societies. I have noticed in the past that re-appraisals of historic events like the demise of civilisations are often influenced by what are thought to be the current "hot issues." When historians and archaelogists are tempted to educate contempories by lessons of history, that usually shapes their view of the actual evidence (e.g. the different ideas about the demise of the Easter Island population: climate change, class warfare, ecological over-consumption, "Western" colonialism....).

good point  :::cheers:::
"Fight your foes in the field, nor be burnt in your house!"

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 8826
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2018, 12:09:36 AM »
One of the main problems of modern science (and the modern liberal consumer capitalist society as a whole) is monetarisation. Stories that appeal to the liberal "hot issues" (women, LGBTQQICAPF2K+, pro-Islam, migration...) are ensured to get you media attention, and thus funding for your projects. 
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline zak

  • Posts: 6230
  • Raging Viking
    • Zachary Moss
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 12:38:50 AM »
One of the main problems of modern science (and the modern liberal consumer capitalist society as a whole) is monetarisation. Stories that appeal to the liberal "hot issues" (women, LGBTQQICAPF2K+, pro-Islam, migration...) are ensured to get you media attention, and thus funding for your projects.

the director of the science department at the university I graduated at a few years ago ( great friend) told me that they have to sign a form letter saying that the science department is looking into global warming and by doing so the department gets thousands of dollars in government funding. I asked him if they are looking into climate change and he stated ..oh heck no but the chancellor makes them sign it every year. hahaha oh well whatever we have to do to get those funds  :::cheers::: 
"Fight your foes in the field, nor be burnt in your house!"

Offline GamesPoet

  • Posts: 13731
  • Happy Summer! : )
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 03:54:12 PM »
Most soft sciences are
He did start his quote about soft sciences. Perhaps the question you need to ask zak is whether he considered archealogy a soft science.
Most definitely, and the idea that it then shifted to archaeology seemed inappropriate.  It's the typical mish mash of stuff thrown in, like its a chain of unconscious thoughts being thrown together because they happen to be stored in closely situated brain cells.  Such is life.

Its a bummer, like Feanor points out, that researchers need to cater to the views of some those providing the funding, yet to their credit that the researchers provide the results regardless of what the funders might be thinking from a "political" perspective.  Yet in that quote that started out with "soft sciences" switches to claiming that archaeology theories from some "old guard" are burned into others who risk black balling otherwise ... it seems like a series of thoughts that jumping from one thing to the next.  Oh well, not the end of the world nor a surprise.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:06:00 PM by GamesPoet »
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Artobans Ghost

  • Posts: 2711
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2018, 04:27:24 PM »
Quote GP: It's the typical mish mash of stuff thrown in, like its a chain of unconscious thoughts being thrown together because they happen to be stored in closely situated brain cells.

Thats a hellishly good description of my brain. I thought medical records were secure 😺
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?

Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

GP Aug 8, 2019
Can we just take a hammer to it, smash it into little bits.

Offline GamesPoet

  • Posts: 13731
  • Happy Summer! : )
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2018, 04:36:06 PM »
Yep, well if a person slows down, and doesn't puke out the thoughts in a rush of vomit, they might actually come up with something that others can understand.  However, it seems to me you're being a bit too hard on yourself, Artoban.

And now I'm wondering which flow of humans out of Africa did your ancestors come from? :icon_wink:

(GP ... are you making some sort of a "political" statement with that comment?)

Nah, not with Artoban.  With Zak, well, that could be a different story.











 :engel:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline zak

  • Posts: 6230
  • Raging Viking
    • Zachary Moss
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2018, 04:42:35 PM »
Yep, well if a person slows down, and doesn't puke out the thoughts in a rush of vomit, they might actually come up with something that others can understand.  However, it seems to me you're being a bit too hard on yourself, Artoban.

And now I'm wondering which flow of humans out of Africa did your ancestors come from? :icon_wink:

(GP ... are you making some sort of a "political" statement with that comment?)

Nah, not with Artoban.  With Zak, well, that could be a different story.











 :engel:


hey leave me out of your madness lol
"Fight your foes in the field, nor be burnt in your house!"

Offline Artobans Ghost

  • Posts: 2711
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2018, 04:48:40 PM »
Quote GP: And now I'm wondering which flow of humans out of Africa did your ancestors come from? :icon_wink:

Iíll take a stab at the tight assed, tight fisted, miserable line that for some reason has a good sense of humour 😸
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?

Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

GP Aug 8, 2019
Can we just take a hammer to it, smash it into little bits.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 8826
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2018, 04:52:38 PM »
You are a Scotsman, then?
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Artobans Ghost

  • Posts: 2711
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2018, 05:29:53 PM »
Mathi Alfblut Feb 4,2017
Simple, You gut the bastard with your sword, the viking way.
Questions?

Mathi Alfblut Dec 9,2017
Get a binge of Yule ale, roasted boar and some proper axes and we will ALL be happy again!

GP Aug 8, 2019
Can we just take a hammer to it, smash it into little bits.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Posts: 6232
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
    • Mattiknifes blog
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2018, 06:25:56 PM »
Well, the Birka warrior woman is something else altogether. I can tell you that. There is much unfounded criticism towards that one. I personally know one of the involved osteologists and trust her deeply.
SHE was sceptical in the beginning but the bones tell their tale and if the science point to a woman, well, it is a woman. Or should we dismiss the hard science part of archaeology because some gets their underwear in a twist?

If it was a man you would have called him a warrior even if there were no signs of injuries  because "men are warriors! WAAAGH!"

She may have been a leader, like Bouddica, who commanded but seldom took active part in the actual combat. But she could have been a successful fighter too... We will never know for certain.


Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline GamesPoet

  • Posts: 13731
  • Happy Summer! : )
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2018, 07:09:55 PM »
Yep, well if a person slows down, and doesn't puke out the thoughts in a rush of vomit, they might actually come up with something that others can understand.  However, it seems to me you're being a bit too hard on yourself, Artoban.

And now I'm wondering which flow of humans out of Africa did your ancestors come from? :icon_wink:

(GP ... are you making some sort of a "political" statement with that comment?)

Nah, not with Artoban.  With Zak, well, that could be a different story.

 :engel:
hey leave me out of your madness lol
That's already too late.  And if only I had a choice.  :icon_wink: :icon_lol:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Gankom

  • Posts: 3554
  • The World Builder
Re: Humans Out of Africa Sooner Than Thought Before ...
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2018, 08:19:04 PM »
You have to fight the madness Zak! Otherwise you just become another one of the voices in GP's head that he talks to!