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Author Topic: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform  (Read 2657 times)

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2018, 01:13:05 PM »
In 3.3 couldn't Blue reform from a 5 to an 8 frontage instead of the 6 frontage illustrated, thus gaining more attacks (four more 1A knights and two horses compared to a 6 front) and crucially forcing Red to remain 'as is' because he can't remove models from combat and so is now stuck with 10 front and cannot reform into a bus of any kind to increase depth and hope for steadfast.

Indeed Blue could reform to a 10 frontage (as another 5 on the front would still have base to base contact) and gain more attacks. Or form into a 12 frontage, adding 14 knights' attacks and 7 horses' attacks to the original 5 frontage situation? Red couldn't reform into a bus, but could add a few more attacks on the side. Might not be a problem, however, if their Initiative is lower.

Naturally, Blue could reform in different ways. However, if he reforms 10 wide, he will have only three ranks; and only two if he suffers a single casualty. Reforming 12 wide, he will have two ranks from the start. In both cases, Red starts with 4 ranks. To prevent Red from being steadfast, Blue (assuming he ends up with two ranks) needs to kill at least 16 models. The 12 wide version would get on average 12-13 kills; the 10 wide version a bit less.  Averages are averages, of course, and some players are more lucky than others.

To add: do not forget that in the horde formation, every additional Red model that is in btb will also add 4 attacks in total for Red. In the case of both 10 wide, and 12 wide that means 40 attacks, and Red must really be very unlucky not to kill at least one Knight. Ceteris paribus, there is no advantage of 10 wide over 12 wide.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 02:22:33 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2018, 03:15:27 PM »
On a side note: there are situations, where you want to win but the enemy not to break, for instance, because that unit happens to be blocking a Death Star. In those situations, you should actually aim for the enemy to end up steadfast.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2018, 03:24:32 PM »
... do not forget that in the horde formation, every additional Red model that is in btb will also add 4 attacks in total for Red. In the case of both 10 wide, and 12 wide that means 40 attacks, and Red must really be very unlucky not to kill at least one Knight. Ceteris paribus, there is no advantage of 10 wide over 12 wide.

There is an advantage of 12 wide over 10, though, as I suggested, but only if reds can't or don't reform to 14 wide after. The reds would still only get 40 attacks, but the blues get 6 more. Although, now the pictures have been modified so that reds have 20mm bases and blues have 25mm frontage bases, much of what I said isn't quite right any more!

In a battlefield situation, as you know (and I think stated somewhere) there is often a lot of factors that affect much if what is being discussed - not least the fact that terrain or other units can restrict certain new formations by being in the way.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2018, 03:35:03 PM »
There is an advantage of 12 wide over 10, though, as I suggested, but only if reds can't or don't reform to 14 wide after.

You might have misunderstood (or I am misunderstanding you now). I said that "there is no advantage of 10 wide over 12." The only advantage is the extra rank, but with 40 attacks, we can safely assume that Red will kill the one Knight that will reduce the Blue ranks to two. So, you might just as well go for 12 wide in the first place.

In a battlefield situation, as you know (and I think stated somewhere) there is often a lot of factors that affect much if what is being discussed - not least the fact that terrain or other units can restrict certain new formations by being in the way.

Obviously. In fact, the possible effects of other units will be the subject of later posts.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 09:59:45 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 07:36:05 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

Now, it can happen that, because of an obstruction, a unit can complete its charge only by "clipping" its target.  In this case, a combat reform is the only legal form of "sliding."

In 4.1, Blue has declared a charge against Red's front, but could only complete his charge by clipping.

 


Note that the corner models belong to both the front and the flank. However, since Blue charged Red's front, he is considered to be only in contact with the front, and both units can only combat reform by contacting more of each other's front, not the flank. That is why the rule specifies that "the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with." If Blue had declared a charge against Red's flank, then he could only reform along Red's flank, not the front, while Red could still only reform along Blue's front, not the flank.
 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 10:09:09 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2018, 09:09:04 AM »
The phrase you quoted from the rules, "the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with," is a very inadequate explanation, as from that wording alone (without reference to other rules elsewhere) a player could argue that blue has indeed contacted a model on red's flank and so can reform to close in on that flank. Where is the actual rule regarding what you are describing? I've checked 'Aligning to the Enemy' (p.20) and 'Unusual Situations' (p.22). Is it in an errata?

For example, if blue where charging by default, due to pursuit of a fleeing unit, and thus ended up clipping another enemy unit, then I can find on p.58 "Pursuit into a new enemy .... The charging unit must wheel and close the door in such a way as to maximise contact, as they would with a normal charge." But that would mean referring to the rules re: flank and rear charges on p.21. Looking at those, then depending on where the charging unit started its pursuit/charge, it might well be able to charge the new enemy's flank.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2018, 09:42:23 AM »
It is the basic rules of charging: when you resolve a charge, the charging unit brings "its front facing into flush contact with the facing of the enemy unit that has been charged" (BRB p. 20). In the example above, it is specifically stated that Blue charged Red's  front.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 09:52:25 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2018, 09:55:29 AM »
Can't see it on BRB p.17. That page is all about charge reactions.

(edit) Got it! p.20. 'Aligning to the Enemy'. So my point about the pursuit/charge situation stands, blues should charge the flank if they started out mostly in the red's flank zone as per p21. I think I missed the crucial relevance of your phrase "since Blue charged Red's front" as obviously things would be different if (by the rules discussed above) Blue was charging the Red's flank. You were not suggesting all charges worked like this, only those on on the front of an enemy unit. Sorry.

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2018, 09:59:44 AM »
Yes. If Blue had charged the flank instead, then Blue could combat reform along Red's flank, but not his front. I'll make it a bit more explicit in the example.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2018, 07:52:25 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

If Blue can go first and wants to retain his current formation, 4.2 shows the maximal "slide" he can perform, while 4.3 shows the same for Red.



There are, of course, a number of other ways in which the units could execute a combat reform here.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2018, 08:47:04 AM »
I thought that if a unit clips, then it is treated just like a charge and therefore you have to bring the maximum number of models on both sides into combat. Thus Red's move in 4.3 would not be allowed, as he could have one more model in combat.

In our own games, certainly, no-one would allow 4.3. As I have often said, why would the one guy who could get into combat say 'NO, I'll not bother. I'll just stay here"? Or, perhaps better put, why would his comrades and officers allow him to do so?

References (though not, annoyingly, directly relevant, but rather 'informative' regarding the 'spirit' of the game and similar situations):

BRB p.20: " ... As many models as possible from the two units must be brought into base to base contact." // "... what would happen in a real battle is that the warriors of the two units would quickly move to attack their enemies ..."

BRB p.58 Pursuit into a new enemy: "The charging unit must wheel and close the door in such a way as to maximise contact, as they would with a normal charge."

BRB p.22 Unusual situations: " ... in some situations the enemy might have to close the door with the chargers instead ... as they would do in reality."

Indeed, with all these rules in mind one might argue that if blue had charged, then the clipping should never have been allowed - either red should have moved, or both units wheeled a little, or blue should have wheeled onto red's flank.

The GM (if you have one) would be a busy person!

Of course, I put all this here in the hope you can point to the actual rules that deal with the clipping situation in 4.1. I can't find the rules on clipping in BRB 6th - 8th ed., nor in any errata. (I seem to have, however, a  memory of seeing some clipping rules somewhere, once, back in the mists of time. I have been playing since 1st ed!.)


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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2018, 09:05:04 AM »
You seem to forget: this is about combat reform. Combat reform happens at the end of a round of CC, after the Break test. There is no sliding allowed at all when resolving a charge. If the charge results in clipping, then only the two corner models that are in btb can fight. Once that CC is over, a combat reform can bring more models into btb with the enemy.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 09:09:17 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2018, 10:17:05 AM »
You say "There is no sliding allowed at all when resolving a charge" & "only the two corner models that are in btb can fight", but where is/are the rule(s)?

All the rules I quoted, being everything I can find with any sort of relevance to this situation, strongly suggest that some sort of sliding / wheeling / repositioning is required. It's long been a topic of debate but I cannot find any official ruling or errata. The thought of a charge resulting in a clip and a fight then being fought between the two corner models is ridiculous! What rules are written seem to think so too (see my quotes). We would never allow it in our games, and have never done.

I genuinely don't know why you are so confident that such a clipping situation is allowed to continue through a combat phase.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 12:31:38 PM by Padre »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2018, 12:50:09 PM »
You are haunted by the ghosts of editions past. Sliding clipping units was allowed by the 7th edition Errata, but not in the 8th edition.
As the rules you yourself quote specify: a charger moves in a straight line towards his target, during which he has one wheel up to 90% to maximise the number of models in combat. Then he must move again in a straight line, until he contacts the enemy, and then he or the enemy closes the door.
If at the end of that process, for whatever reason, the result is clipping units, then that is it. There is no rule whatsoever that allows you to slide clipping units in the Charge sub-phase. As I said before: the only legal way to "slide" clipping units is trough a combat reform.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2018, 01:10:04 PM »
Then I suspect it is an omission by the rules designers. We shall continue to play by finding a way to make the units fight (agreeable to the players, either sliding or wheeling) as that corner to corner combat phase is an very silly thing indeed!

I was hoping you could make the rules make sense, but instead you've only confirmed my suspicion that they are flawed in this case. If sliding was allowed in 7th, then it seems to me that the rules' writers then saw the need for such a rule. It has been forgotten in 8th, apparently. I wonder how the 9th ed rules resolve this clipping situation.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2018, 02:18:02 PM »
The 8th edition designers had 5 years to change this, if they had wanted to - they did not. Indeed, even in the 7th edition, it turns out that sliding was not part of the official rules. I dug out the 7th edition Errata, and they actually say: "Please note that these are not rules, but rather helpful suggestions we encourage you to use to resolve your games in a friendly manner."

Of course, if you and your opponent agree, feel free to play otherwise, but one cannot fault me either for trying to write 8th edition tactica based on the the 8th edition rules, not on houserules.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:21:48 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2018, 02:30:22 PM »
I'm not having a go at you at all. Just disappointed to discover that there are no sensible 8th edition rules for this situation. Having played Warhammer since the mid 80s right from first edition I am very much happy to come up with house rules to make the game playable. I have had to do so for over three decades, so I am quite used to it. It would, however, have made a nice change if in 8th edition there was more clarity, more sense and comprehensiveness.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2018, 04:51:54 PM »
Do not forget that certain rules changed sharply in 8th edition. In 6th & 7th edition, a charging unit had neither the free wheel nor the unlimited move allowance; nor did combat reform as such exist (the earlier equivalents were far less flexible). I assume that is why they dropped the earlier suggestion to slide during a charge.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2018, 05:03:25 PM »
And yet they still failed to fix the clipping situation. Genius.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2018, 06:27:37 PM »
They made it less likely to occur. And presumably, in those cases where clipping still does occur, e.g. because of an intervening obstacle, sliding would not necessarily be possible anyway when charging.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2018, 02:16:42 PM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

So far, we have only dealt with situation involving the two units in actual combat. But as the Altdorf poet and cleric Don Johannes said "No combat is an island," and a combat reform can have effects on other units too. In particular, it can affect the possibilities of other units to charge in the next turn.  If the next turn is your own, then you have to consider, if a combat reform may facilitate a charge by one or more of your units. If it is the enemy's turn, then you should consider whether a combat reform could hamper or even prevent enemy units charging.
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2018, 08:51:14 PM »
Picture 5.1 depicts Blue's turn, just after the resolution of combat between units A & B. In this situation, it is clear that unit C would be able to declare a flank charge against unit A in the next (Red) turn, but unit D cannot, because it is blocked by unit B.

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »
If Blue can combat reform first (5.2), unit A can reform out of the frontal arc of unit C, prevent unit B from unblocking unit D, and preserve his own chances of being steadfast in the next round of CC (if need be).

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2018, 01:34:28 PM »
Combat reform can be a slide...
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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2018, 08:36:32 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

If Red can combat reform first, he can unblock unit D, either by simply sliding to the right, or by reforming into a bus. In 5.3, he has opted to maximise his attacks and retain the horde formation. In this situation, both C & D are set up for a flank charge against A.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 05:01:25 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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