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Author Topic: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform  (Read 653 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2018, 11:15:30 AM »
But blue could reform into a horde too, preventing one of those flank charges. Or wider than a horde, and become a speed bump for units behind.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2018, 11:23:36 AM »
Patience, patience - it is not finished until the fat lady sings.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2018, 07:09:57 PM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

Blue can still counter this to some degree with his own combat reform - for a price. He can still shift outside the frontal arc of unit C (but not B) by reforming into a horde (5.4). While he cannot escape a charge by unit B, it is now at least turned into a frontal, not flank charge: he will not be disrupted. The price he has to pay is the chance of being steadfast. The maximum number of ranks he can achieve now is 5; and if he loses only two models he is down to four. Note that Red could have decreased that chance even more, by reforming into a bus, instead of just sliding.

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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2018, 04:44:14 PM »
In the previous examples we have seen how a combat reform can be used to unblock units by the player whose turn will be next. However, it can also be used to block units by his opponent.

In 5.5, the next turn will Blue's, and unit D is poised to charge unit C, which is a HVT, say a lvl 4 wizard.



If Red can combat reform first (5.6), he can block unit D from charging unit C (and also from charging unit B itself in the flank).



However, unit D can charge unit B instead, and if unit B is destroyed or flees in the ensuing combat with A & D, unit D can pursue/overrun into C, which then has only the option to hold, rather than flee, if the charge had not been blocked.  On the plus side: since he is not fleeing, the lvl 4 wizard is still able to dispel and use magic items in the next (Blue) Magic phase.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 07:55:17 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2018, 04:54:37 PM »
The ideas you are describing are all very useful. Luckily they would work also with the way that we play, which is not so much house rules but an extrapolation of the Spirit of what rules exist. The last examples you gave all involved a start situation involving a form of clipping we would never allow, yet your advice still stands and would still be valid in terms of reforming from a non-clipped starting formation.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2018, 07:38:21 AM »
@ Padre: The clipping examples were just for reasons of laziness efficiency of labour. As you say, they usually work in other situations too.

On a final note regarding sliding: I do agree that sliding on the charge is in the spirit of the 6th and 7th edition = but not of the 8th edition, where, as explained above, the mechanics are different.  Indeed, the 7th Edition Appendix suggesting sliding gives two concrete examples when to use sliding. Both of these simply cannot occur in the 8th edition, precisely because of the free wheel, which did not exist in previous editions.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2018, 07:54:00 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

In 5.6, there is really nothing that Blue can do to counter Red by reforming himself. However, if Blue can reform first (5.7), he can prevent Red from making any meaningful combat reform, and in the next turn, unit D can choose between a frontal charge against C or a flank charge against B.

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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2018, 09:43:07 AM »
If the 7th ed gives 'concrete examples' then I would suggest they are just that, not an exclusive description of any and all situations in which sliding can occur. I still think (just my opinion, however - I am not claiming certainty) that the quotes from 8th, given above, express a spirit in which clipping should be avoided, especially the quote on BRB p.20: " ... As many models as possible from the two units must be brought into base to base contact." // "... what would happen in a real battle is that the warriors of the two units would quickly move to attack their enemies ..." This I very much agree with. A clipped combat taking place seems wrong, moreso than most other 'tabletop' conventions. In reality some sort of folding around would occur in such a situation, or the attackers would end up mostly on one flank. The rules don't allow this for simplicity reasons, so we would allow sliding as the simplest of all resolutions - often sliding both units a little. The end result seems as close as to what might happen in an actual battle as we can get.

But ... like I said, although this is a 'house-rule' it is very much done in the spirit of the rules (that quote) and the spirit of Warhammer rules from the past (we've all been playing over many rules' sets, myself since 1st ed). Besides, our campaigns involve army lists from previous editions (by necessity), campaign army lists from internet campaigns, and campaign rules modified from a combination of Mighty Empires, General's Compendium and other campaign mechanisms. Sliding is probably the least of our 'sins'. Rules lawyers would hate our campaigns!
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2018, 09:09:13 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

The fat lady is not singing yet, but now seems a good time for Warlord, Padre or anyone else to bring up ideas/ask questions about the combat reform of entire units that have not been covered yet.  Otherwise, we will turn to the subject of combat reform and individual models within the units.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 09:28:06 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2018, 01:18:59 AM »
This has been highly informative thus far.
Quote from: Gneisenau
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2018, 07:20:33 AM »
Somebody brought up the subject of combat reforming into a conga line. Given that you cannot reduce the number of models in CC, there will be few situations where that would be possible, let alone useful. The only one I can think of is clipping units:



If Blue can reform first, he can adopt a conga line. Red reforming in response cannot bring more Blue models into CC. If the Blue model contacting Red is a champion, then Red can only attack the champion, and any wounds inflicted will not overflow on the unit, provided, of course, that all Red models in CC have the same initiative.

If Red can reform first, then he can prevent the conga line.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 06:58:48 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)