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Author Topic: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform  (Read 1131 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2018, 11:15:30 AM »
But blue could reform into a horde too, preventing one of those flank charges. Or wider than a horde, and become a speed bump for units behind.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2018, 11:23:36 AM »
Patience, patience - it is not finished until the fat lady sings.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2018, 07:09:57 PM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

Blue can still counter this to some degree with his own combat reform - for a price. He can still shift outside the frontal arc of unit C (but not D) by reforming into a horde (5.4). While he cannot escape a charge by unit D, it is now at least turned into a frontal, not flank charge: he will not be disrupted. The price he has to pay is the chance of being steadfast. The maximum number of ranks he can achieve now is 5; and if he loses only two models he is down to four. Note that Red could have decreased that chance even more, by reforming into a bus, instead of just sliding.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 05:02:38 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2018, 04:44:14 PM »
In the previous examples we have seen how a combat reform can be used to unblock units by the player whose turn will be next. However, it can also be used to block units by his opponent.

In 5.5, the next turn will Blue's, and unit D is poised to charge unit C, which is a HVT, say a lvl 4 wizard.



If Red can combat reform first (5.6), he can block unit D from charging unit C (and also from charging unit B itself in the flank).



However, unit D can charge unit B instead, and if unit B is destroyed or flees in the ensuing combat with A & D, unit D can pursue/overrun into C, which then has only the option to hold, rather than flee, if the charge had not been blocked.  On the plus side: since he is not fleeing, the lvl 4 wizard is still able to dispel and use magic items in the next (Blue) Magic phase.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 07:55:17 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2018, 04:54:37 PM »
The ideas you are describing are all very useful. Luckily they would work also with the way that we play, which is not so much house rules but an extrapolation of the Spirit of what rules exist. The last examples you gave all involved a start situation involving a form of clipping we would never allow, yet your advice still stands and would still be valid in terms of reforming from a non-clipped starting formation.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2018, 07:38:21 AM »
@ Padre: The clipping examples were just for reasons of laziness efficiency of labour. As you say, they usually work in other situations too.

On a final note regarding sliding: I do agree that sliding on the charge is in the spirit of the 6th and 7th edition = but not of the 8th edition, where, as explained above, the mechanics are different.  Indeed, the 7th Edition Appendix suggesting sliding gives two concrete examples when to use sliding. Both of these simply cannot occur in the 8th edition, precisely because of the free wheel, which did not exist in previous editions.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2018, 07:54:00 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

In 5.6, there is really nothing that Blue can do to counter Red by reforming himself. However, if Blue can reform first (5.7), he can prevent Red from making any meaningful combat reform, and in the next turn, unit D can choose between a frontal charge against C or a flank charge against B.

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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2018, 09:43:07 AM »
If the 7th ed gives 'concrete examples' then I would suggest they are just that, not an exclusive description of any and all situations in which sliding can occur. I still think (just my opinion, however - I am not claiming certainty) that the quotes from 8th, given above, express a spirit in which clipping should be avoided, especially the quote on BRB p.20: " ... As many models as possible from the two units must be brought into base to base contact." // "... what would happen in a real battle is that the warriors of the two units would quickly move to attack their enemies ..." This I very much agree with. A clipped combat taking place seems wrong, moreso than most other 'tabletop' conventions. In reality some sort of folding around would occur in such a situation, or the attackers would end up mostly on one flank. The rules don't allow this for simplicity reasons, so we would allow sliding as the simplest of all resolutions - often sliding both units a little. The end result seems as close as to what might happen in an actual battle as we can get.

But ... like I said, although this is a 'house-rule' it is very much done in the spirit of the rules (that quote) and the spirit of Warhammer rules from the past (we've all been playing over many rules' sets, myself since 1st ed). Besides, our campaigns involve army lists from previous editions (by necessity), campaign army lists from internet campaigns, and campaign rules modified from a combination of Mighty Empires, General's Compendium and other campaign mechanisms. Sliding is probably the least of our 'sins'. Rules lawyers would hate our campaigns!
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2018, 09:09:13 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

The fat lady is not singing yet, but now seems a good time for Warlord, Padre or anyone else to bring up ideas/ask questions about the combat reform of entire units that have not been covered yet.  Otherwise, we will turn to the subject of combat reform and individual models within the units.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 09:28:06 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2018, 01:18:59 AM »
This has been highly informative thus far.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2018, 07:20:33 AM »
Somebody brought up the subject of combat reforming into a conga line. Given that you cannot reduce the number of models in CC, there will be few situations where that would be possible, let alone useful. The only one I can think of is clipping units:



If Blue can reform first, he can adopt a conga line. Red reforming in response cannot bring more Blue models into CC. If the Blue model contacting Red is a champion, then Red can only attack the champion, and any wounds inflicted will not overflow on the unit, provided, of course, that all Red models in CC have the same initiative.

If Red can reform first, then he can prevent the conga line.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 06:58:48 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2018, 05:06:27 PM »
That certainly is a fantasy version of how we play 8th edition. There is so much there that neither me nor my 6 players would allow as it is so patently silly even if a case can be made that it is RAW rules. Just look at the diagrams - I'm sure anyone can see what a ridiculous way it would be to play the game. Do not take this as a criticism of you, but rather as an explanation of why we apply common sense, our experience from playing many many earlier editions, and the spirit of the rules rather than RAW. It is also why we very often operate with a games master or referee.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2018, 06:36:21 PM »
The conga line is considered a cheesy, but legal tactic in the 8th edition (although that may already have been the case in earlier editions as well - I would have to look that up).
I treat it like shooting with gunpowder units at a target through other units: I do not do that myself, but will not fault somebody for applying the rules.
And forgive me for pointing this out: by your own admission, you are de facto playing a fantasy version of the 8th edition, with bits and pieces of earlier editions replacing the actual 8th edition rules. That is fine, but, equally, one cannot complain if people stick to the 8th edition rules as such.
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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2018, 07:15:26 PM »
I can laugh at them for being silly, however, and sticking to rules that very obviously have lazy design flaws in them. (We conga-lined way back in third, or maybe 6th - hard to recall - when we wanted units not to suffer too many war engine hits, I think, or maybe it was something else we were avoiding? But yeah, I conga lined my undead several times. It looked silly then, but we were daft and thought it was funny!)

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Or ... do what you like. I've drunk a pint or two this merry e'en, so perchance my utterings are irksome?
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2018, 02:24:42 AM »
It is horrible. But legal.
And knowledge of this (all of this), by a savvy enough player while 8th ed was still 'THE' edition, would have been challenging to play against.

The conga line I see as primarily placing your unit as a blocker for other units that may want to charge past that spot, etc. Its uses are limited yes, but still present. Even if it is distasteful.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2018, 08:36:14 PM »
Another issue in-between the combat reform of whole units and individual models relates to a combat reform in order to face the enemy and the position of the command group.

Regarding the position of the command group, BRB p. 95 states: "If the unit changes formation then the command group automatically pushes its way back to the front. Accordingly, when a unit reforms, the models of the unit's command group must be repositioned into the unit's new front rank as described above (regardless of the distance)."

In 6.1, Blue has been charged in the flank, and wants to reform to face the enemy. 



However, reforming like  6.2 would violate the special restriction that "it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made." Therefore, if Blue wants to change his facing, he must bring in more models (i.e. the command group) into btb with the enemy.
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Offline Padre

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2018, 09:02:09 PM »
That rule does make sense. I like it. It would be mad to let the command group do 'swapsies' with guys in combat, but adding to their number seems eminently do-able.

Once again I comment not about whether the rule is official, but that I like this aspect of RAW. This is a sensible result from applying the rules, unlike some of the previous silliness.

I can and will use this in my GMing duties. Please carry on.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2018, 09:18:08 AM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

The inverse is also true. In 6.4, Blue is about to be charged in the flank and thus disrupted. If he could change facing as in 6.5, he would avoid being disrupted and would end up steadfast as well. However,  this combat reform would be illegal, as it would force the command group out of combat. 
 
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2018, 05:07:59 PM »
Conga lining was somewhat restrained in 6th edition due to the rules for lapping round. No idea why those were cut out of 7th edition.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2018, 10:48:28 AM »
I would say, because this rule was without much use, since you could only move two models per flank at a time. Conga-lining as described above hardly ever occurred, because you were allowed to slide units when completing the charge.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2018, 05:47:07 PM »
Reformation and Counter-Reformation (continued)

We now turn to the subject of combat reform and indivivual models within the units. A combat reform can be used to move models elsewhere, provided all the models (friend and foe) that were in CC remain in CC. This follows from the last sentence of the combat reform rule on p. 55: "The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish."

There are two important factors to take into account: timing and footprint.

1. Timing: while for the combat reform of an entire unit it is better to be able to reform first, we will see that now it is better to go second. So, if you are planning to execute a combat reform to change the postion of the entire unit AND individual models, these may be conflicting, and you may not be able to achieve both aims. If, therefore, both sides want to execute a combat reform, but you win the roll off, you must choose to go first or second according to the priority of your aims.   

2. Footprint:  the combat reform of individual models usually involves characters which may have a different base size. Of course, they need to have the same footrpint as 2 or more models of the unit; otherwise they need to be placed at the edge of the unit. A different base size can facilitate or hamper achieving the aim of the combat reform. 
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2018, 09:14:12 AM »
A combat reform can be used to attack or evade specific models. In 7.1, the Blue Wizard Lord is in btb with a Blender Lord. With lots of luck, he has survived the Red fury. Blue now uses a combat reform to move the WL away from the BL, and thus increase his chances of survival (7.2). 


However, if both players want to combat reform, Blue must execute his reform last, because, otherwise, Red could simply move the BL back into btb with the WL,  during his combat reform.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Reformation and Counter-Reformation: the tactical uses of combat reform
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2018, 09:37:13 AM »
Blue could decrease the WL vulnerability a bit further by sliding sideways (7.3), so that only one Red model remains in btb. Of course, two can play at that. In 7.4, Red was able to combat reform last and has maximised the attacks against the WL.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 09:46:18 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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