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Offline GamesPoet

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King Arthur ...
« on: October 30, 2018, 03:39:18 PM »
A brief video on the legend of King Arthur ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBsY88Lir-A
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

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Offline Rowsdower

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 04:57:46 AM »
No one else has said it. Guess I'd better say it
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 01:20:07 PM »
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2018, 01:58:08 PM »
I've been reading Le Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory (see literature thread). I just finished the tale of Sir Lancelot and started The Tale of Sir Gareth. So far its been pretty fun and a lot has happened that you don't ever see in the movies (like how King Arthur conquered the Roman Empire). I liken it to an action movie with manly men fighting other manly men and saving damsels and such. Lancelot being the manliest of manly men. I get the feeling all the knights back then were bored to death and so they jujst wandered the country side looking for something to do or someone to fight just for the sake of fighting. There are many sorceresses/damsels who are just as bored and pretty much do the same thing.

Here's another one to add to the list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_jgF-S746o

and a follow up on the knights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBpkqS68xlk
I love the animation. Everyone has such luscious hair! :biggriin:

And for funsies here is a very clear HD version of MP's Grail saga:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D5_V72jMtM
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline BAWTRM

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2018, 07:15:51 PM »
I get the feeling all the knights back then were bored to death and so they jujst wandered the country side looking for something to do or someone to fight just for the sake of fighting. There are many sorceresses/damsels who are just as bored and pretty much do the same thing.

So basically any modern open world action-rpg?  :biggriin:

"...granted it isn't as retarded as having a lady popping out of your head holding a cup while humping a boar with a sword through its back, but there can only be one Brettonia."

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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2018, 08:00:51 PM »
I get the feeling all the knights back then were bored to death and so they jujst wandered the country side looking for something to do or someone to fight just for the sake of fighting. There are many sorceresses/damsels who are just as bored and pretty much do the same thing.

So basically any modern open world action-rpg?  :biggriin:
Pretty much!  :::cheers:::
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 02:17:57 AM »
Found this article to be interesting, even whether or not it is correct ...

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/04/king-arthurs-birthplace-found-claims-british-researcher/
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

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Offline Dihenydd

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 02:42:17 PM »
I get the feeling all the knights back then were bored to death and so they jujst wandered the country side looking for something to do or someone to fight just for the sake of fighting. There are many sorceresses/damsels who are just as bored and pretty much do the same thing.

So basically any modern open world action-rpg?  :biggriin:

Not that far off!  One of the main reasons so many went on the Crusades was there were far too many second and third sons with swords running about with nothing to fight.  They needed something to focus on or they may start getting ideas about getting rid of brother #1, or the duke, or even the kingdom.  There were other reasons of course, but Daddy liked the idea of sons #3-5 swinging swords on the other side of the sea instead of at home causing trouble.
Blah

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2018, 04:23:15 PM »
I get the feeling all the knights back then were bored to death and so they jujst wandered the country side looking for something to do or someone to fight just for the sake of fighting. There are many sorceresses/damsels who are just as bored and pretty much do the same thing.

So basically any modern open world action-rpg?  :biggriin:

Not that far off!  One of the main reasons so many went on the Crusades was there were far too many second and third sons with swords running about with nothing to fight.  They needed something to focus on or they may start getting ideas about getting rid of brother #1, or the duke, or even the kingdom.  There were other reasons of course, but Daddy liked the idea of sons #3-5 swinging swords on the other side of the sea instead of at home causing trouble.

There is an old wise saying that a bored soldier is always a bad thing. Its one of the suspected reasons why Hadrian's wall was built (its not like the picts were trying to invade every month or anything and it gave the legions there something to do).

I remember going on base with my dad and he pointed out a soldier cutting the grass. "You see that guy? You know why he's cutting the grass right?"
"Is it his job?" I asked.
"No, grass cutting isn't a job in the military. Some officer must have found him not doing anything and gave him grass cutting duty. You never want to look like you're not doing anything, or else you get some shit chores."
I have found this to be true in my adult life both at work and at home.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 07:18:03 PM »
So, the trailer for the new Hellboy came out...it takes place in England...theres what looks to be a sword in the stone...giants...a sorceress...

Is this Arthut mythos? Is Milla Jovovich Morgan Le Fay?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKwEXCgROtc

oh I was close...its Nimue aka Damsel of the Lake in Le Morte D'Arthur
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 08:25:48 PM »
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2019, 08:44:29 PM »
Since King Arthur fights and defeats the Roman Empire, I started looking into late roman empire era weapons and armor. Very interesting since its so different from the more popular depiction of roman soldiers.

Spears, a single pilum like javalin and darts fastened to the inside of their oval curved shields. Looks like they kept the sword but instead of the gladius they started useing longer swords not unlike the cavalry of the older era.  I never knew they threw darts!
"Late Roman infantrymen often carried half a dozen lead-weighted throwing-darts called plumbatae (from plumbum = "lead"), with an effective range of c. 30 m (98 ft), well beyond that of a javelin. The darts were carried clipped to the back of the shield or in a quiver. The late foot soldier thus had greater missile capability than his predecessor from the Principate, who was often limited to just two pila."
The new roman army doctrine seems to be about fighting at arms length instead of upclose and personal.



The armor is very different too with scale or ring long shirt of mail and a fancy new helmet based on the ones used by the Sassanid Empire. These new ridged helmets came in two verities and look similar to some of the Anglo Saxon helmets in the British museum.  From what I am reading this evolution happened because soldiers were complaining that the old armor was too heavy or uncomfortable and at one point started not wearing helmets or breastplates anymore which made them very vulnerable to archers. So the new army protocols started becoming lax and they started sacrificing protection for comfort. It was also cheaper to make and maintain these new armors than the old ones we're all familiar with. Infantry was being beefed up with auxiliaries from barbarians as special elite troops.





Looks like they started relying more and more on cavalry than infantry too. Cataphractii units started to become more common and used in combat more than the supporting cavalry of old.  With the focus being more on cavalry I can see why knights started becoming a thing in old western roman areas after "the fall." It seems like a very organic and logical step. Don't tell Ammianus I said that as his writing have a very different view as he hated the cavalry and lauded the infantry.



Another doctrine that seemed to have changed was the army was always trying to avoid open battle whereas the more classic Roman armies seemed to try and bring the enemy into battle as soon as possible. The old romans wanted to charge in with heavy infantry and break the enemy whereas the new romans seemed to use a similar tactic used later at the battle of Hastings by the English. Shield wall it up and keep the pressure on while pelting them with as many missiles as possible until they break. This was meant to minimize casualties.



Considering the age of the "historic" Arthur I was very interested to see what the british probably used and were up against. Considering the roman presence I would imagine their equipment may be similar.  The "Mythic" Arthur of Malory seems to be arrayed in a suit of chain mail, a bucket like helmet and a shield with "spears" instead of lances along with a sword. I imagine a doublet was used too. No detail on the kind of shields but have been imagining something akin to a wooden Heater shield but who knows. I imagine something like this:


"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Aldaris

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2019, 11:34:12 PM »
That "mythic" equipment would be about 600 years after Arthurs supposed era. Just sayin'. Also, AFAIK the Romans had already left Britain by his time.

Offline zak

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2019, 12:18:54 AM »
https://youtu.be/tSukMQHQLIs everyone knows this is based off historical fact  :closed-eyes:
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2019, 04:47:46 AM »
That "mythic" equipment would be about 600 years after Arthurs supposed era. Just sayin'. Also, AFAIK the Romans had already left Britain by his time.

Considering Malory wrote the book in 1480 it probably reflect closer to his own time rather than historic fact which is why I say mythic instead of historic.

In the book he goes to war against the roman empire because the emperor says he's a client state and owes him tribute. Arthur says to hell with you I'm coming for ya! The armies of Greater Britain and France band together under him and fight the emperor. Again this is Mythic Arthur not "Historical" Arthur. I honestly have to keep reminding myself that when I read Malory as its basically historical fiction based of legends, folktales, and some vague historical facts surrounding Arthur that he tries to string together into a coherent narrative.

If you look at later depictions of Arthur the equipment seems to reflect the warfare of the time.  Just look at the movie Excalibur. Everyone is practically in Gothic full plate armor and opening each other like can openers. Its all in good fun.  :wink:

the only historic things we know about Arthur is:

1. Fought the Saxons
2. "The twelfth battle was on Mount Badon in which there fell in one day 960 men from one charge by Arthur; and no one struck them down except Arthur himself*" in 516 AD (first mention of him in any historical context)
3. "The battle of Camlann, in which Arthur and Medraut [Mordered] fell*" around 537 (Nothing mentioning if they died or even if they fought against each other or on the same side. Just that they fell. Reading back then people fell off horses all the time and came back later)

Everything else has been based of myth legends and "history" from that time.

*Historia Brittonum by Nennius written around 828
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2019, 07:08:04 PM »
But then, the line between what's mythical and what's a non-mythical (yet possibly inaccurate) primary account isn't so easy to draw. The legend of Arthur is Welsh in origin, then made its way from there to the French (and Anglo-French) aristocracy. Being keepers of oral history was part of the job description of Welsh bards, and they didn't have any concept of a dichotomy between mythical and historical  :-D
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2019, 07:23:36 PM »
Myth and History are quite the rocky rapids aren't they?  :happy:

Like the siege of Troy happened and we can find it on the map and with archaeological evidence, but does that mean the Iliad is real? Was Hercules real? Many sons of Hercules were present in the 9th year of the siege according to the Iliad. Knowing that, Hercules could be more than just a folk hero, but perhaps a very strong dude that lived at one time a generation before the Trojan War. Unless there is a primary source of a first hand written account then facts start to become a bit muddied and legends are born.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2019, 02:24:13 AM »
On the darts ... they had to store their tavern games somewhere while fighting. :icon_wink:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

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Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2019, 02:25:36 PM »
There is a scottish cronicle which does mention the death of a prince named Artorius in a battle near an old roman fort named Camulodunum or similar. Up by the Hadrians wall somewhere. They kicked saxon arse but lost the prince.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Aldaris

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 11:32:15 AM »
Coincidentally, I'm currently reading the Arthur trilogy by Bernard Cornwell. It's very good, even by his standards!

It's told by one of his Arthurs former companions, Derfel Cadarn, as an old monk.

"These are the tales of the land we call Lloegyr, which means the lost lands, the country that was once ours but which our enemies now call England. These are the tales of Arthur, the Warlord, the King that Never Was, The Enemy of God and, may the living Christ and Bishop Sansum forgive me, the best man I ever knew. How I have wept for Arthur."

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2019, 05:38:03 PM »
I am kind of surprised there is a few knights from India and a prominent Knight named Palamedes that is middle eastern running around in England in Le Morte d'Arthur. I have a feeling if Netflix or the BBC ran a Le Morte d'Arthur show they would get flak for having such characters, even though they were in the stories.

edit: also, is the questing beast just a giraffe?

"following the Questing Beast that had in shape a head like a serpent's head, and a body like a leopard, buttocks like a lion, and footed like an hart; and in his body there was such a noise as it had been the noise of thirty couple of hounds questing, and such a noise that beast made wheresomever he went"
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:53:44 PM by Feanor Fire Heart »
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Von Kurst

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2019, 06:38:51 PM »
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2019, 07:34:18 PM »
Seems like an interesting find. :icon_cool:
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

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"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2019, 11:52:30 AM »
It should Indeed be an interesting find.

If we look for an historical basis the precence of roman or ex-roman soldiers or mercenaries from all over the Empire is not strange at all. That such figures appears in the tales could be seen as remains of a historical reality from the migration period.

The roman Empire were no strangers to moving people were they were needed.
They actively relocated Syrian bowmakers with families in order to supply their Fabriciae in the western half with the expertice to make recurve bows.

When the western half of the Empire crumbled the recurve bow dissappear almost completley from archaeological and historical material.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: King Arthur ...
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2019, 03:27:28 PM »
A fun video about Excalibur and Arthur:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_3-8wbBCCg
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-