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Author Topic: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .  (Read 3496 times)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #175 on: September 19, 2019, 09:55:55 PM »
Sorry, if we are sharing empire variants, I have:
Hochland army
Stirland army
Reikland / Altdorf army
Middenhiem / Ulric army
Cult of Sigmar army
Mercenary army
Araby army
Beginnings of a Cathay army (not assembed, but pieces assigned)

Different models / ranges give each a distinct theme...
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #176 on: September 19, 2019, 11:07:36 PM »
Time for a new thread ... I feel it it coming on ...
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #177 on: September 19, 2019, 11:20:56 PM »
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #178 on: September 20, 2019, 11:40:47 PM »
You guys are terrible, terrible influences... I am not going to 2000 points!

So I got my second (or third) Elven Lord on Griffon and I finished the heads I mentioned earlier.



Original on the left, mine on the right.



And both finished:



So now my Elven General has the same head whether he's on foot, on horse, or griffon.  :::cheers:::  I am super excited about this and I have to admit this is the biggest thing that has bothered me since I started collecting Warhammer Fantasy. It was pretty expensive to do too.

Will post pics when done. Will work on my NEW Empire General on Griffon after that.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #179 on: September 21, 2019, 11:40:53 AM »
You could have always swapped the standard head on the griffin lord with something you had multiples of...
Too late now I guess!
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #180 on: September 21, 2019, 01:19:39 PM »
. . .


Offline Warlord

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #181 on: September 22, 2019, 10:09:21 AM »
Sorry! Was just a random thought I had. That said, its a very good, fancy head!
Plus you get an empire griffon out of it.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #182 on: September 23, 2019, 01:40:43 PM »
YOU WILL BE SILENT!

Yes the extra griffons were cool. And to be honest, I do think the Griffon Lord's head is the best of all of them. So no regrets. Or regerts, as I see on the internet at times.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #183 on: September 23, 2019, 07:59:21 PM »
Has anyone ever used Ravening Hordes with 7th edition? Or any 6th edition Army books with 7th? Does it break anything? I haven't even really read the 7th rulebook, so no real idea on the difference between it and the 6th rulebook.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #184 on: September 23, 2019, 09:15:20 PM »
Well, when the 7th edition BRB came out, you had to use the 6th edition Army Books. That was the case for every edition - with the exception of Ravening Hordes. However, the 7th BRB was just a modification of the 6th, not a complete overhaul like the 8th, so there was no real problem. In fact, problems for the 7th edition started, because of power creep as the AB got published over time.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #185 on: September 23, 2019, 09:24:09 PM »
I haven't used the combo, but a couple friends think 7th ed BRB with Ravening hordes is the best approach.

-Z

Edited: meant The 7th ed BRB, not AB.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:40:12 AM by Zygmund »
Forget the 6'x4' game, focus on the story beyond that. Because fantasy matters.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #186 on: September 23, 2019, 10:49:51 PM »
No kidding... since my Dwarf army is assembled and so is most of my Goblin, I was thinking of running a game of 7th first using that Start Here First guide, and go from there. Just to get a better grasp on the overall mechanics.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #187 on: September 24, 2019, 03:02:07 AM »
7th is a tidier base ruleset.
However some changes to be aware of:
5 wide ranks instead of 4
Great weapons mounted changed.
I think parry changed too?

I would suggest using the 6th ed terrain generator at the back though.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #188 on: September 24, 2019, 08:08:22 AM »
Parry remained the same - that changed in 8th. That GW only provided +1S when mounted, but remained ASL was one of the dumbest changes of the 7th edition. Another major change was in Magic: the Magic Lores were overhauled (but still not overpowered), the miscast chart changed, and power dice generated by Wizards could only be used by themselves.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:16:57 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #189 on: September 24, 2019, 09:08:14 AM »
7th is a tidier base ruleset.
However some changes to be aware of:
5 wide ranks instead of 4
[...]

I think 5 wide ranks were introduced already during the 6th ed. But how early/late in the edition? WD number?

-Z
Forget the 6'x4' game, focus on the story beyond that. Because fantasy matters.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #190 on: September 24, 2019, 09:44:45 AM »
Warlord is correct. Here is an old overview:

Quote
WARHAMMER 7TH EDITION RULEBOOK
RECORD OF RULES CHANGES - COMPLETE

In general, all rules text has been simplified where it was felt that it was unclear or overwritten. Some diagrams have been modified for extra clarity and new ones have been added where necessary.
Compatibility with existing army books was paramount throughout the entire process and has been 99% achieved!

The main changes are:

• Movement:

1. Charging units must now move to bring as many models as possible into the ensuing fight (from both their side and the enemy’s). This prevents exploitation with “clipping” charges.
2. Clarified how to move fleeing and pursuing units. Essentially: pivot the unit on the spot to face the direction it’s going to move towards, and then move it the distance rolled.
3. Clarified charge re-direction. Units hit enemies other than the ones they charged only if the new target is in their way as they charge after the fleeing intended target.
4. Re-worded the Change Formation manoeuvre so that it refers to the width of the unit’s frontage and not its ranks.
5. Killed the Snaking formation, as it is an obsolete rule that has long lost its reason to exist due to the newer rules for skirmishers and fast cavalry.
6. Clarified that units cannot voluntarily move off the battlefield unless specified in the scenario that is being played.

• Shooting:

7. A unit can now shoot only against one enemy unit and not multiple enemy units in any case, no exceptions.

• Magic:

8. Power dice generated by wizards can be used only by the wizards that generated them and not by other wizards in the army. The dice in the pool remain available to all wizards.
9. The Miscast Table itself is a lot nastier and the wizards can actually die from a Miscast, with rather spectacular pyrotechnic effects.
10. Spells in the Magic Lores have been reviewed in an attempt to make the least used Lores more appealing and tone down the ones that are a bit too good.
11. The Enchanted Shield cannot be combined with magic armour.
12. Reading a dispel scroll does not terminate the dispelling wizard’s Remains in play spells anymore.


• Combat:

13. Combat Phase sequence changed. The player whose turn it is picks combats in turn and each combat is completely resolved, including fleeing and pursuing, before passing onto the next. This clarifies the sequence in which fights, fleeing and pursuing happen. This change has several repercussions, such as allowing units to fight twice in a combat phase if they pursue into an existing combat that has not been solved yet during that phase (fight, win, pursue/overrun into another combat, fight again). Units, however, are limited to one pursue/overrun per turn only.
14. Fleeing is now always done directly away from the cause first, and then towards the closest table edge in following turns. Fleeing troops can move through friends (causing Panic), but are destroyed if they have to flee through enemies (of Unit Strength 5+) or impassable terrain. This solves the complex issue of the movement’s direction of fleeing and pursuing units.
15. The number of models needed to receive a Rank bonus in combat is now 5!
16. Killed the “Lapping Round” manoeuvre, but allowed winning units to perform a turn or change formation manoeuvre in combat, in order to bring more models into the fray.
17. Allowed the +1 combat res. bonus of the Battle Standard to stack on top of the +1 for units’ banners.
18. Added the Insane Courage rule: rolling snake eyes on a break test means the test is automatically passed, regardless of modifiers. This can even override auto-break from Fear-causing enemies!
19. Defended obstacles have been toned down. Units attacking over an obstacle simply lose the charging bonuses.
20. Clarified the rules for units that re-enter the battle after pursuing enemies off the table.

• Psychology:

21. Troops engaged in close combat do not take Psychology tests!
22. In order to cause Panic, friendly units fleeing/wiped out must have Unit strength 5+.
23. Unified all Panic ranges to 6”.
24. Removed the Panic test for fleeing friends within 4” at the beginning of the turn (it has effectively been replaced by the Panic test for friends fleeing through the unit).
25. Immune to Psychology gives immunity only to Panic/Fear/Terror, allowing positive psychological effects to affect the unit.
26. Unbreakable has now a Swarm box-out, which makes swarms suffer extra wounds when losing a fight, much in the same way as Undead.
27. Use combined Unit Strength of all units defeated in a fight against the combined Unit Strength of all fear-causing units on the winning side to determine if they are outnumbered by fear-causing enemies.
28. Stupidity does not affect units in close combat.

• War machines:

29. War machines without a crew are immediately destroyed by enemies in base contact with them.
30. Cannon balls hit all models they go through when hitting skirmishers or war machines and their crew.
31. Grapeshot uses the flame template, has variable Strength (Artillery dice) and causes D3 wounds.

• Weapons:

32. Great weapons confer only a +1 Strength bonus to mounted models.
33. Pistols simply count as hand weapons in close combat. If a model carries two+ pistols, it has the 2xMultiple shots rule.
34. Hand weapon+shield extra pip of armour applies only when fighting to the front and not to the flanks/rear.

• Skirmishers:

35. They cannot march if enemy is within 8” (this rule now applies across all units, no exceptions).
36. They get a single change of direction during the charge.
37. Added a section about skirmishing units of monsters and handlers.

• Monsters/chariots:

38. They get only one pivot during a charge.
39. Chariots can choose to move through difficult terrain and obstacles (but still suffer damage).

• Miscellaneous rules:

40. Regeneration is now a simple save working exactly like a ward save, except that it can be taken after ward saves (!) and is cancelled by flaming attacks.
41. “Always Strike First” has been standardised as a Special Rule.
42. Deleted the rule protecting Characters within 5” of friendly units. If not inside a friendly unit, characters are a unit of their own and can therefore be targeted normally!
43. Characters inside a friendly unit cannot be targeted by missile fire (and get ‘Look out sir’ if the unit is 5 or more models strong). This rule does not apply if they have Unit strength 5 or more. This allows characters mounted on multi-wound steeds (like Archaon, Tyrion etc.) to join friendly units without being picked out by enemy fire!
44. Buildings. Complete new rules for moving and fighting in buildings, including a spread on Special features (funky fantasy terrain!).
45. Clarified interaction of flying movement and terrain.
46. Magic resistance is passed from a character to the unit it joins and vice-versa.
47. Clarified rules for capturing Battle Standards.
48. Half VPs are now scored for units reduced to half strength or less, and not below half strength. The same is true of characters (so wounded Heroes yield half their cost in VPs!).
49. Units with Unit strength of less than 5 cannot capture table quarters, nor can they deny them.
50. Champion banners musicians and characters all equally have to be in the first rank (players are free to decide who goes at the back if there’s no space).
51. Clarified that fleeing generals and battle standards lose their abilities.
52. Clarified character-unit psychology interaction.

• Scenarios:

53. All scenarios have been either deleted or moved to the Hobby section. The rules section has now a “Starting the game” sequence that effectively explains the Pitched Battle scenario.
54. The rules for deploying terrain have been expanded, creating a terrain-set-up pre-game phase.
55. The player winning the roll-off at the beginning of the game gets to choose the table side but also has to start deploying, balancing out the importance of the initial roll.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline The Black Knight

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #191 on: September 24, 2019, 09:48:59 PM »
The most important change about the 7th ed rulebook is that it had an index  :icon_wink:. Thank the gods for that!
"All right... we'll call it a draw".

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Offline Warlord

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #192 on: September 25, 2019, 01:02:37 AM »
There was also the auto destroy if flee through a unit with unit strength 5 or more I believe... if it wasn’t already mentioned in Fidelis post (skimmed, but did not pick it up).
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #193 on: September 25, 2019, 07:43:26 AM »
Number 14.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Warlord

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #194 on: September 25, 2019, 10:30:39 AM »
I feel like that, and the charge redirect rules had a massive impact on 7th ed strategies.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #195 on: September 25, 2019, 01:02:46 PM »
Ok I am going to make my first game in 7th. Seems with the index and pics that it will be easier for me to digest the rules.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #196 on: September 25, 2019, 11:12:53 PM »
Well I just got that Empire Detachment set (was hung up due to the weather in Texas) and I am really glad I got it. While I was iffy on the State Troops all this time, I realize the handgunner/crossbow men models are vastly superior to the old models, which I do like. I had actually thought of mixing the two but I am just going to stick with the new ones.

I am still not crazy about many of the newer heads but whatever. I can see how Empire fans would have been big fans of these newer models. I wish I had cleaned out GW some time back.

I am really pumped about this. I was cool with the Empire army before but now I feel it has a 1000 times more character than what I had previously.

Also, does anyone know of any pics of the newer Halberdiers with shields? I don’t know where to put mine, and I wanted to use the older larger ones. I thought about putting them in the ground like they have jammed them into the ground in front of them, like they have set them down before fighting or something. Actually I just realized they would then get in the way. I thought of slinging them over their backs but not sure what they all would have to hook them to, if they didn’t have straps showing.

Help a brotha out! Go Empire!

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #197 on: September 26, 2019, 08:17:16 AM »
The newer Empire Detachment box (no longer in production), with the melee and ranged infantry, was a very tempting buy. Alas and IIRC, already back in 2009 it was out of production, and I couldn't find it locally. Didn't it also contain a Helblaster?

About halberdiers and shields, I have two, no three approaches. Two of them historical:

Historically, late medieval/renaissance infantry with halberds and pikes used the shields while advancing, and then either threw them away, or hanged them on their backs when engaging the enemy. So the shields were there to protect against arrows. Some units/armies had separate shieldbearers for the task. These could be the same guys who also fired the crossbows - and indeed, skirmishing crossbowmen with shields were the norm around the 14th and 15th century (very roughly). The shields used for this purpose, in this kind of formations, tended to be very big and rather rectangular, real pavises, sometimes with a pole for support and a pike at the bottom to lock them on the ground. No GW shields produced for the Empire ever had the proper size & looks for these kind of shields. 6th/7th ed Bretonnian infantry had such pavises, and the largest knight shields (also sold with some Bret infantry boxes) up to the 5th ed depict the earlier, more heather-like large shield.

The shields that come in the State Troop box are target shields (Tartsche in German). These seem to have had an Eastern origin, and were mostly used by cavalry. They started to appear in the 14th century (or even earlier in Eastern Europe). In the 15th century, the last century knights really used shields, target shields had become the norm. They were of many forms, but were mostly rather rectangular, with holes or other forms to support the lance or allow some tricks against the enemy weapon. This led to new forms of the heraldic shield too. Many GW fantasy shields echo these late heraldic shield forms, which were really never used in battles. So the State Troop shields are not very well suited for infantry fighting in formation. Some swordsmen detachments did carry such smaller shields, but they often chose round or roundish shields (the Spanish swordsmen for example). The State Troop shields might be better suited for cavalry than infantry, and you might want to look for other shields by other manufacturers for your infantry.

But who cares of history? It's a fantasy game.
In game, it's more about the look and the rules, and if you want to say your infantry has shields, better show it too.

All the State Troop bodies with breastplates do have some sort of strappings on their backs, although some of them are really thin, just lines on the garment. IIRC a couple have real straps. I don't think it too far fetched to say that these straps can be used to hang the shield. Carrying a small to medium shield on the back while using a two-handed weapon was practised. It will look good enough.

Some interpret the small target shields as buckler-like, and actually glue them on the forearm of the halberdiers (or the spearmen). Personally, I think it looks awkward. The shield doesn't protect much more than the forearm, it looks too heavy to use with the polearm, and it obstructs sight. Real bucklers were smaller and usually round. I don't recommend this option. But who am I to say what people do with their fantasy minis?  :engel:

-Z
Forget the 6'x4' game, focus on the story beyond that. Because fantasy matters.

Offline KTG17

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #198 on: September 26, 2019, 02:57:52 PM »
Wow thanks Zygmund, it always amazes me how much peeps know regarding all this gear and tactics. I have learned a lot in this thread.

For shields, I was going to use these that I made for my old Swordsmen:



And I have just enough leftover (along with a different symbol) to use for the Halberdiers. I have to be honest that I do like the variety of the newer, smaller shields, as opposed to having mine look all the same. I was going to try and get around that by painting them all a little differently. But the smaller ones do look dainty and wimpy, especially for the Halberdiers.

I agree I don't think they belong on the arm as in attached to a forearm, especially during a fight, but I figure these guys are advancing more than they are actually fighting... so maybe its not a terrible idea either.

And I am keeping the goofy round ones for my Spearmen (from the 6th starter) and my Knightly Orders will keep the larger shields too. So might as well keep things consistent. If I was to do a second Empire army, I imagine I would experiment with small shields.

WHICH I AM NOT. DON'T GIVE ME ANY IDEAS!

Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Hi from a newbie and my deep dive into WFB. . .
« Reply #199 on: September 26, 2019, 03:53:34 PM »
I like it when a regular infantry unit has shields that look the same.  Not sure if that was the way it was done in the early renaissance or not.  Having different shields seems to imply they are land owners that have different heraldry.
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb