Topic: What's Your Take on Using Empire Archers?

[Rowsdower]

I've always been confused by Empire archer rules.
Half the rule books i have state that archer are best used for skirmishing and or hit & run attacks and that they operate best in small units.
Yet i frequently see people use giant blocks of them.
What's everyone's personal take on this?

[Zygmund]

I use Empire archers in small units for chaffing/redirecting, march blocking, screening and threatening unarmoured low T troops, especially NG Fanatics and solo wizards.

I always try to include at least a unit of Huntsmen (longbows in the 6th ed!), and often a detachment of ordinary archers. They are helpful.

As to why people might use them in big units, I'm not entirely sure. They are nimble skirmishers and can move freely. And more shooting is more. Still, they are a bit expensive for what they do.

I've seen larger units used only in lists that have some (fluff) reason not to take Pistoliers. For example the Army of Middenland/Cult of Ulric lists, or fan-made Halfling lists. Of course archers are core, whereas Pistoliers are not, so that might also be a reason.

8th ed introduced more upgrade choices in the form of command group. I remember people had ideas about stronger archer units then. I myself used a unit of nine archers and even sought to challenge some small units into close combat. But they were a nuisance at best, easily countered.

Could it be the models? The Free Company/Militia box allowed you to build ten archers, as did the new Huntsmen/Archers box. And people liked those models. So if they have 10-20 archers painted, maybe they use them in a big unit just because?

Edit: the 5th ed monopose Bret bowmen are some of the cheapest ever GW models around, and have been available in second hand ever since 1996. Head swaps can turn them into OK Empire archers. Model-wise they might be the cheapest option to build up an Empire army. I think around a quarter of my archers are these models, a nice 10-man skirmisher/shooter unit. This could also partly explain the big archer units.

-Z

[Rowsdower]

The militia kit was such a wonderful kit i never get tired lamenting about.
It also reminds me of a discussion i had here with some others a few years ago out Empire weaponry and Renaissance era warfare.
I guess most people use archers sparingly as there are 'better' options with the kits. Models with early firearms look more threatening against foes who are armed with pointy sticks.

[commandant]

I used to take them as a screen unit in the 5-10 size and toss them in front of a big unit of greatswords or something to block line of sight for charging and shooting in 6th ed

[Warlord]

Are you sure its one big unit, and not multiple little 5 man screens in front of blocks of infantry?

[GamesPoet]

I recall using them as 5 figure screens for larger units.

Plus it is goes with the fluff for my Aver River Regiment.

[Mike Stockin]

In 3rd only the front rank can fire so that limits you to single ranks, with a unit of say 10 archers that is quite some frontage.

I am re-organising my units for my Empire, but I plan on having one unit of scouts out in front to harass the enemy and act as a screen/sponge.
I will then have smaller units of probably 5 on either side of the bigger units to guard their flanks.

Given the effectiveness of the Empires artillery I am not sure I will use archers much in the way of attacking, but more as a deterrent.

[Rowsdower]

In 3rd only the front rank can fire so that limits you to single ranks, with a unit of say 10 archers that is quite some frontage.

I am re-organising my units for my Empire, but I plan on having one unit of scouts out in front to harass the enemy and act as a screen/sponge.
I will then have smaller units of probably 5 on either side of the bigger units to guard their flanks.

Given the effectiveness of the Empires artillery I am not sure I will use archers much in the way of attacking, but more as a deterrent.

That makes perfect sense.
I dont understand why Empire archer seem to be rare as surely bows are easier to manufacture than crossbows and or cumbersome firearms which have lengthy reloading proceedures

[Mike Stockin]

I didn't know they were rare?
But then whilst a crossbow may be more fiddly to make, they are much easier to use and more consistent in their damage.
Normal bows do damage based on the pull, if you are weak then you can't deliver as much damage as your draw will be less.
Crossbows have the same pull and you don't need to be strong as they can have mechanical winding mechanisms.
I guess also crossbows can be made from any old wood and one size fits all?
Firearms are defo low on my list, they are as you note slow and if you use the misfire rules then potentially dangerous to the user.
I have one unit of 10 for cool factor only.

Having said that, in a defensive position handguns will deliver a nice slap up close.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I didn't know they were rare?

Depends on the edition. According to the 6th edition AB, "Crossbows are not popular weapons in the Empire, though Tilean mercenaries are often recruited to augment the firepower of an Elector Count's army. Some Counts from the southern provinces retain units of Crossbowmen as part of their personal household troops. "

However, the 7th edition AB (translated from German) stated that "most elector counts retain a large number of Crossbow regiments, and often mercenary crossbowmen (in particular Tileans) are hired."

I had not noticed it, so far, but the 8 th edition AB unit description has no separate entry for either Crossbowmen or Handgunners.

[Mike Stockin]

Interesting, in 3rd there are 2 compulsory units.
Helblitzen (Halberds) and Armbrustschutzen (Crossbowmen).

This would suggest crossbows are very common.

However I think  @Rowsdower was saying the archer (bow) is rare rather than the crossbow?

[Mathi Alfblut]

In the army I am putting together i got one unit of crossbow and one of handguns. It is a Nordland themed army but that also acts as a mercenary company from time to time.
I have one unit of crossbows and a unit of huntsmen and a unit of handgunners.

Nordland is supposed to be backward so a unit of crossbows made sense to me. Guns are more expensive so background wise, the huntsmen and the crossbows are locally recruited. But the handgunners are a special units with soldiers from allover the place. They are personally selected by the commander while the crossbows are standschutzen, a part-time unit from the commanders county.

[Wolfgang aus Wien]

My Empire army is based on a self-created city in the eastern Empire where things are perhaps slightly less 'modern' than they would be in, say, Nuln or Altdorf, and has a more late Medieval/early Renaissance look rather than the late Renaissance look currently being favored.
To achieve the look I want, I'm using a lot of Battlemasters figures (among many others) and their Archers still look great, imho, despite being monopose and 30 years old.
In terms of game usage, I'd say small units to screen more valuable troops or harass enemy flanks and war machines are the way to go.
In 5th edition, I used a heavily min-maxed Night Goblin army - had to, all my opponents were major power players - which featured a unit of 5 NG Archers and they always did phantastically well considering their extremely low cost.

[BAWTRM]

My Archers are also from the old Battlemasters game and they indeed look great. Professional archers instead of the militia look you get from the Free Company models (great for my Huntsmen unit though).

[lcmiracle]

Interesting, in 3rd there are 2 compulsory units.
Helblitzen (Halberds) and Armbrustschutzen (Crossbowmen).

This would suggest crossbows are very common.

However I think  @Rowsdower was saying the archer (bow) is rare rather than the crossbow?

In thought of this as army doctrine more than availability of weaponry. For example, the French used crossbows prominently throught out the hundred years world despite Crecy and Agincourt, and even then heavy cavalry still had successes late into the war. Their missile troops were primarily mercenary from the Italian kingdoms such as the Genoese crossbowmen.

And the English longbowmen was really something only the English could field anyway; longbowmen require long periods of training, which the English had laws mandating something like the freemen to practice shooting with them a minimal number of days each year. In contrast the crossbow was much easier to use. Which is also why firearms replaced the bow in the end -- it didn't start out better than bows, but when it became clear that guns could be used by a peasant with very little training, it took over because the ability to raise more able soldiers> the ability to raise few elite fighters.

The Empire has the gun (musket) and 2500s the guns would have been around for more than 500 years (Mordheim had guns), it worked like the HRE and fielded units like the HRE, including ITelian mercenaries because they can get more soldiers quickly that way.

Me, personally, I just thought being able to move and shoot in 8E Empire was a nice little bonus, but I prefered Handgunners.

[Pistol Pete]

Interesting, in 3rd there are 2 compulsory units.
Helblitzen (Halberds) and Armbrustschutzen (Crossbowmen).

This would suggest crossbows are very common.

However I think  @Rowsdower was saying the archer (bow) is rare rather than the crossbow?

And the English longbowmen was really something only the English could field anyway; longbowmen require long periods of training, which the English had laws mandating something like the freemen to practice shooting with them a minimal number of days each year. In contrast the crossbow was much easier to use. Which is also why firearms replaced the bow in the end -- it didn't start out better than bows, but when it became clear that guns could be used by a peasant with very little training, it took over because the ability to raise more able soldiers> the ability to raise few elite fighters.

This is part of the reason that crossbows and guns replaced arrows. But the biggest reason was economic factors.

Arrows are surprisingly difficult to make. The long shaft requires very specific wood types and it takes a lot of time.to make the individual arrows and then straighten them. It also takes lots of work to keep them straight.

This is labor intensive and takes lots of specialized arrow makers.

Crossbow bolts are significantly shorter and thicker than arrows. They are MUCH simpler to make, use less wood, and the wood type isn't as critical. The shorter, thicker bolt shafts also tend not to bend or warp nearly as much as arrows, so this reduces labor too.

Thus, you can manufacture crossbow bolts MUCH cheaper than arrows, and the skill level of the bolt craftsmen are nowhere near as important.

Likewise, it's incredibly easy to manufacture lead shot. It requires very little skill at all! Once you have molds, you.can crank ammo out by the millions. Lead shot is also immune to environmental factors and very easy to store andmtransfer in large quantities compared to arrows or bolts.

Even though crossbows and guns are more expensive and difficult to make than bows, the savings on ammo is so much more important in the long run.

[Rowsdower]

^
Hollywood has a lot to answer for doesnt it. How many Robin Hood movies depict the Merry men, hastily and effortlessly manufacturing arrows in a limited time frame.

[lcmiracle]

Based on 1st edition roleplay, Dwarfs: Stone & Steel, the Empire first came to build cannon in 1991 IC

Nuln
Nuln's 850 Dwarfs live primarily in the Schwarzrauch district on the south bank of the River Aver, near its confluence with the Reik. Nearby is the renowned Imperial Gunnery School and the Richtofen Armaments Foundry, Both were founded by the Dwarf Engineers Guild for the Nuln Emperor in 1991 I.C. With the consent of the High King and the Guild master of Karaz-a-Karak, the Dwarf Engineers of Nuln instructed their neighbours in the craft of manufacturing cannon barrels and mixing gunpowder. The lmperial Gunnery School maintains close ties with the Dwarf Engineers' Guild.

And it is also stated that on page 109's timeline that it is when cannons found its way into the imperial arsenal.
WFRP 2nd edition contradicted this however, by stating in Companion that "The first foundry and gunnery school was established in the century leading up to the Great War Against Chaos" (page 99), thus putting in in the 2200s.
This is further fucked in 4th edition RP:

From the Dwarfs the technology spread to Humans, though this was a slow process as the Dwarfs guarded their technological secrets jealously. By the year 2000 IC, gunpowder weapons began to appear throughout the Old World, mainly via the close relationship between the Dwarfs and the people of the Empire, and from there the secret of black powder escaped into the wider world. Though Dwarf powder remains the best and most reliable available, cruder — yet effective — mixtures are produced and used in far greater quantities by the forces of the Empire and beyond. Despite the limitations and dangers of this new technology, its utility is undeniable.
                            ----------------------------------------Up in Arms (p. 99),

When handguns began to proliferate in the armies of the Empire circa 2000 IC, Borys von Tasseninck refused to supply them to Ostland’s State Troops, claiming ‘their implementation would mean wasting perfectly good swords and spears’. These words have become proverbial, uttered every time an Ostlander wishes to decry out-of touch aristocrats.
                            ----------------------------------------Sea of Claws (p.29)

My opinion is that, multiple sources put gunpowder weapon's introduction to the imperial arsenal as early as the 2000 IC (Mordheim, RP1 & 4), so 2nd is clearly mistaken and it should have been "centuries" instead of "century".

Anyways, huntsmen are clearly militia, and imperial archers ain't no longbowmen, that's for sure. I don't like them as the mainline range unit precisely due to the "feel" they have. Like they are reasonable pickets and skirmishers, but handguns/crossbows should be the professional soldiers in the Imperial army.

Also because the Empire should be like the H.R.E. Landsknecht, so no archers