Topic: All the magical nonsense

[commandant]

===
Magical nonsense [1497 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [746 pts] ++

General of the Empire [188 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- General
- On foot
- Bedazzling Helm
- The White Cloak

Wizard Lord [195 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- On foot
- Armour of Tarnus
- Daemonology

Master Mage [140 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- Pegasus
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

Master Mage [140 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- Pegasus
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

Captain of the Empire [83 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Pistol
- Battle Standard Bearer
- On foot

++ Core Units [535 pts] ++

30 Veteran State Troops [285 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Drilled
- Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

15 State Troops [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

15 State Troops [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

5 Empire Archers [35 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows

5 Empire Archers [35 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows

++ Special Units [216 pts] ++

6 Inner Circle Knights [216 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Full plate armour
- Inner Circle Preceptor (champion) [Sword of Striking]
- Standard bearer
- Musician

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

My idea is that magic missiles are good so lets have loads of them

[Athiuen]

I don't really understand why you'd take 2 level 2's over a single, tooled up level 4.
You could probably purchase a cannon with what you save.

If you're just doing it as a test of the efficiency of casters, that's fine.
But I think the general consensus is landing on caster being just fine, average all round.
So spending so many points on them seems inefficient.

[Minsc]

Since the list focuses on being gimmicky (spamm magic missiles, specifically The Summoning from Daemology), here is what I would do:

1)
- Get rid of the 2 Master Mages on Pegasuses; upgrading them to a lvl 2 is a waste of points and they'll just die because they have 3 T3 wounds with no save and can't really hide via Loner because you have no cav except the IC-knights. (+280 pts)
- Swap Armour of Tarnus for a regular Talisman of Protection on the Wizard Lord. (+5 pts)
- Get rid of the Sword of Striking on the IC-champ (I mean really, why is it even there?) (+15 pts)

This leaves 300 points to play with:

2)
- Get 3 Level 1 Master Mages, each with a Wizard's Staff. Unlike the Pegaus-Mages, these can Loner-hide close to any of your infantry. (+240 pts)
- Give Ruby Ring of Ruin and a Wizard's Staff to the Wizard Lord (+60 pts)

Boom! (or Zzap?)
From 3 Magic Missiles with +3/+3/+4 to cast to 5 Magic Missiles with +2/+2/+2/+2/+5 to cast.

Alternatively, turn all the level 1's into level 2's (+90 pts) and ditch their Wizard's Staffs (-60 pts) + the Ruby Ring of Ruin (-30 pts). The Wizard Lord can keep his Staff. You lose out on 1 bound Magic Missile, but get 3 random spells.
(Or ditch the Talisman of Protection instead and keep the Ruby Ring. It's not like a 5++ will keep that Wizard Lord alive against a dedicated close combat unit anyway.)

[commandant]

I don't really understand why you'd take 2 level 2's over a single, tooled up level 4.
You could probably purchase a cannon with what you save.

If you're just doing it as a test of the efficiency of casters, that's fine.
But I think the general consensus is landing on caster being just fine, average all round.
So spending so many points on them seems inefficient.

I'm mostly playing around with the impact of the new magic rules on the game.   Can I use wizards as mobile artillery platforms now that they all get to cast their spells.

Since the list focuses on being gimmicky (spamm magic missiles, specifically The Summoning from Daemology), here is what I would do:

1)
- Get rid of the 2 Master Mages on Pegasuses; upgrading them to a lvl 2 is a waste of points and they'll just die because they have 3 T3 wounds with no save and can't really hide via Loner because you have no cav except the IC-knights. (+280 pts)
- Swap Armour of Tarnus for a regular Talisman of Protection on the Wizard Lord. (+5 pts)
- Get rid of the Sword of Striking on the IC-champ (I mean really, why is it even there?) (+15 pts)

This leaves 300 points to play with:

2)
- Get 3 Level 1 Master Mages, each with a Wizard's Staff. Unlike the Pegaus-Mages, these can Loner-hide close to any of your infantry. (+240 pts)
- Give Ruby Ring of Ruin and a Wizard's Staff to the Wizard Lord (+60 pts)

Boom! (or Zzap?)
From 3 Magic Missiles with +3/+3/+4 to cast to 5 Magic Missiles with +2/+2/+2/+2/+5 to cast.

Alternatively, turn all the level 1's into level 2's (+90 pts) and ditch their Wizard's Staffs (-60 pts) + the Ruby Ring of Ruin (-30 pts). The Wizard Lord can keep his Staff. You lose out on 1 bound Magic Missile, but get 3 random spells.
(Or ditch the Talisman of Protection instead and keep the Ruby Ring. It's not like a 5++ will keep that Wizard Lord alive against a dedicated close combat unit anyway.)

My difficulty is that the magic defense of the opponent is likely to be focused around stuff that I need to hit with the wizards.   A load of level one wizards don't have good mobility (compared to the peggy wizards) and can be countered by a single level 4.

The magic missile has only a 15 inch range or so.   This will make it really difficult for low movement wizards to avoid the magic defense and a +2 to cast is rolling against a +4 to dispell at -1 where as a +3 to cast is rolling against a +4 to dispell at even scores.

[Sir Falo]

The only reason I think for going lvl 2 demonolgy over a lvl 1 with wizard staff if to hope to get steed of shadows. But you dont realy have any infantry that are good att throwing upp in the backline of the enemy. So I agree with Minsc option 2. If you want an ability to move faster maybe find the points for normal horses. Cheaper and it works quite fine.

Edit. If you feel range is a problem. You can use dark magic and go for doombolt. It hurts less but is easier to cast and have a better range.

[commandant]

Also a level 2 with the wizard staff has a much better chance of getting off the spells.   Remember that the magic defense is likely to be a level 4.   So a level 2 with the wizard's staff is basically a level three.   In a straight up duel against a level 4 then the level 2 with the wizard staff will win roughly 45% of the time because the level 2 wins draws.

Therefore a level 2 with the wizard staff can go into the magic defense with a reasonable chance of winning.   This is important when the magic missile only has a range of 15 inches.

Edit. If you feel range is a problem. You can use dark magic and go for doombolt. It hurts less but is easier to cast and have a better range.

I did consider doombolt but the fact it hurts less is a problem here.

[Sir Falo]

I think low level wizards are ju better off keeping away from the enemys lvl 4. So extra range and lower cast is important with a lower level wizard. Tring to power thru a lvl 4 dispell even with +3 cast is not that easy, and you are paying alot for it.

[commandant]

Also its worth noting that doombolt only does a maximum of 1 wound so is a lot less good against mulitwound models

[The Peacemaker]

Inner circle knights take 2 wounds and opponent can target your mage pegasus.

I don't think there is any way around not taking core knights with Empire for any kind of viable list.

[commandant]

Inner circle knights take 2 wounds from doombolt???

Inner circle knights take 2 wounds and opponent can target your mage pegasus.

Like opponents can target your mages in the same way that opponents can target your detachments but the question is always with what?

Flying mages with a 10 inch movement and 360 degree LOS are going to be hard to track down.   
A quick look at what the opponent can target them with includes Shooting, Magic and Combat.

Combat is going to be the hardest for the opponent to engage them with.   They could start the battle suitably behind terrain or an archer screen and they need to be trapped into combat.   Remembering that they have 360 degree line of sight and a base 10 inch move (with a 20 inch move possible if safety becomes more important than damage output) it will be impossible for most infantry and almost all cavalry to trap them into combat.   Their range needed is 15 inches which is a reasonable charge for even swift stride cavalry and they can fly to get themselves out of charge arcs.   This really leaves only fliers as a major combat threat to them.   I haven't really gone over the flyers but most fliers (if I am correct) are also movement 10 or below.   Therefore in the dancing duel in the air they are not at a disadvantage.   They are at a big advantage against dragons and the like because they are close order units and therefore it should be reasonably easy to fly out of their charge arc.   Other fliers might need to eat a summoning spell in the face in order to charge them and the summoning spell could be quite dangerous against a lot of fliers.

Magic.
Again their big movement (and the fact that in the wizard very light meta that appears to be developing) most players might want to keep their wizard with the main body of their army means that it should be reasonably easy to keep them out of the LOS of opponents wizards and even if it isn't there is still a chance your main wizard will dispel the magic. 

Shooting
They are reasonably protected against most BS based shooting by the fact that they are T4 and the opponent will normally be firing at long rang.   After all a 15 inch range on the magic missile means that you don't need to be that close.   High strength and accurate war machines could be a problem.   I wonder if this list needs to drop the knights in favour of 2 cannons to clean out your opponent's war machines.   

They are, on mature consideration, surprisingly more defensible then their stats would suggest. So the question remains, when confronted with these two magic missile slinging wizards what do you target them with?

[Minsc]

Inner circle knights take 2 wounds from doombolt???

No he means that 2 wounds on the IC-knights and they can no longer "Loner-protect" the Pegasus-Wizards.

They are, on mature consideration, surprisingly more defensible then their stats would suggest. So the question remains, when confronted with these two magic missile slinging wizards what do you target them with?

My own magic missiles, skirmishers or fastcav (esp. with any sort of ranged weapons), various warmachines, any unit with ranged weapons which aren't Ponderous, etc, etc.

They're expensive and annoying T3 models (they're not T4, Pegasus does not grant +1T) with 3 Wounds and no save.
In your original list, they would be the first things I'd target and get rid of.
What else am I gonna shoot at? Your IC-knights or large slow unit of State Troops?

[commandant]

Yes but the IC-knights are not there to Loner-Protect the Pegasus-Wizards in the main sense of the term.   The mobility is there to protect the wizards.

I have looked at these examples but

My own magic missiles, skirmishers or fastcav (esp. with any sort of ranged weapons), various warmachines, any unit with ranged weapons which aren't Ponderous, etc, etc.

Magic missiles:

Your own magic missles are indeed a concern.   But your own magic missiles need to draw LOS (which could not be that easy if your wizard is in a unit) and get through my magic defense of the level 4 (most likely).   Certainly magic missiles are a concern.   However magic missles that are a concern also have a range that is equal to the peggy mage.   For example it should be reasonably easy to keep the peggy mage out of range of other mages who are casting summoning while still casting summoning against their units.

Skirmishers or fastcav

Both of these are much slower than the peggy-mage.   It is one thing to say that.   Firing skirmishers (if they have quick shot) are still likely hitting the peggy-mage on 5+ (long range) or even 6+.   With BS5 or so this could be a concern but these are fairly rare.   For shooting you would need to be concerned more about characters with the Dragon Bow or that sort of nonsense.   I'm not sure what type of normal BS shooting is very concerning.

Like if you consider empire archers.   They have 6 shots (say there are six of them which seems like a decent number for skirmishers) which would do on average 2 hits and 1 wound.   That means they need 3 rounds of uninterrupted shooting to kill the peggy wizard.

Warmachines (certainly ones that do multi wound) could a serious difficulty.   Hence my later thought that I need cannons for counter battery fire.
All non Ponderous BS shooting is only hitting on a 6+ (if they moved and long range).   Most is Str 3 or so.

Certainly there is some concern but the Peggy mages can be hidden behind the archer screens at the start of the battle.

They're expensive and annoying T3 models (they're not T4, Pegasus does not grant +1T) with 3 Wounds and no save.
In your original list, they would be the first things I'd target and get rid of.
What else am I gonna shoot at? Your IC-knights or large slow unit of State Troops?

Well you do have to do something about that large slow moving unit of state troops because that is where all the points in this list are.

[PowerSeries]

So I played a game against wood Elves.

The way watchers or blocks of glade guard can definitely delete a mage if they get a clear shot at them.  Heck they deleted 10 spearmen a turn, as well as my knight block.


Also of my mage can move 10" and then cast a 16" spell, they can target you mage as long as you are within 26".  Assuming they want to be in that location afterwards. So I'm not sure you count as safe from magic missiles.

[Minsc]

Skirmishers or fastcav

Both of these are much slower than the peggy-mage.   It is one thing to say that.   Firing skirmishers (if they have quick shot) are still likely hitting the peggy-mage on 5+ (long range) or even 6+.   With BS5 or so this could be a concern but these are fairly rare.   For shooting you would need to be concerned more about characters with the Dragon Bow or that sort of nonsense.   I'm not sure what type of normal BS shooting is very concerning.

Like if you consider empire archers.   They have 6 shots (say there are six of them which seems like a decent number for skirmishers) which would do on average 2 hits and 1 wound.   That means they need 3 rounds of uninterrupted shooting to kill the peggy wizard.

You bring up speed yet the wizards themselves are limited to their cast range. It's not like skirmishers and fast cav with ranged weapons need to be able to charge you or even be near you, just being within their range is enough. If your Wizards are out of range they can't cast, and I'll just shoot at something else = it's a win.

Empire Archers are quite literally one of the worst ranged skirmishing units in the game when it comes to damage output, they're not a good yardstick. There are a ton of BS4 skirmishers who will hit your Wizards on 3+ or 4+ if long range. Heck, it doesn't even have to be skirmishers, just regular ranked up elves with bows will hit on 5+ at worst (-1 move, -1 long range) unless you're in cover. Then you have various units that can march and shoot, got quickshot, don't suffer penalties, etc. etc.

Any competent general with a half-decent list would either eliminate those Wizards without too much effort (or keep them so far away that they can't do anything), assuming it's an army that can do so. Against some armies without shooting (like WoC and VC) they'll likely perform better.

Well you do have to do something about that large slow moving unit of state troops because that is where all the points in this list are.

Sure, but the things that is most capable of dealing with large units of infantry are usually not the same thats the most capable of dealing with chaff, because thats essentially what your Pegasus-Wizards are.

[commandant]

Any competent general with a half-decent list would either eliminate those Wizards without too much effort (or keep them so far away that they can't do anything), assuming it's an army that can do so. Against some armies without shooting (like WoC and VC) they'll likely perform better.

Lets look at a half-decent list with a (shall we say a reasonably competent general)

You bring up speed yet the wizards themselves are limited to their cast range. It's not like skirmishers and fast cav with ranged weapons need to be able to charge you or even be near you, just being within their range is enough. If your Wizards are out of range they can't cast, and I'll just shoot at something else = it's a win.

They are limited by their casting range certainly but their casting range is 15inches.   So their movement is 10 inches and their range is 15 inches so they have quite a large range.    Also they have 360 degree LOS so they can be very close to your units as long as they can stay outside of the charging/firing arc.    Skirmishers are sort of bad because they also have 360 degree LOS but most fast cav are Open Order and therefore their charge/firing arc can be avoided.

Imperial Hunt [1999 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [998 pts] ++

General of the Empire [353 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Imperial Griffon
- Giant Blade
- The White Cloak
- Healing Potion

Grand Master [261 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- General
- Barded Warhorse
- Ogre Blade
- Talisman of Protection

Captain of the Empire [94 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Barded Warhorse

Wizard Lord [290 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Pegasus
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Arcane Familiar
- Armour of Tarnus
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

++ Core Units [514 pts] ++

5 Empire Knights [122 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour
- Drilled (0-1 unit per 1,000 points)
- Preceptor (champion)
- Musician

5 Empire Knights [127 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour
- Drilled (0-1 unit per 1,000 points)
- Preceptor (champion) [Charmed Shield]
- Musician

10 Empire Archers [95 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows
- Fire & Flee
- Scouts
- Marksman (champion)

10 Empire Archers [85 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows
- Scouts
- Marksman (champion)

10 Empire Archers [85 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Warbows
- Scouts
- Marksman (champion)

++ Special Units [487 pts] ++

5 Inner Circle Knights [176 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Full plate armour
- Inner Circle Preceptor (champion) [Charmed Shield]
- Standard bearer
- Musician

5 Inner Circle Knights [171 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Full plate armour
- Inner Circle Preceptor (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

2 Demigryph Knights [140 pts]
- Lances
- Shields
- Full plate armour
- Demigryph Preceptor (champion)
- Musician

---

So this is a 2000 point list that was posted on this site.   What is there in this list that can go after the peggy-mages?

The level 4 on a peggy would be an option.   This is likely the most scary thing in this list to the peggy mages.    The general on the imperial griffon would also be a concern.   Finally the archers could be concerning but that is about it.

So what can we do about this?   If you fly the two peggy-mages together then the level 4 has the problem of getting into range of one of the level 4s in order to blast the other one.   This is where the fact that you are pushing your spells through the magic defense of a level 4 45% percent of the time.

It also seems likely that the one of the mage on a peggy or the captain on the griffon would need to be lost to get to 1500 points.

[Minsc]

... commandant, I have to ask: do you play many Empire mirror-matches? You seem to almost have tunnel vision on what other Empire-players/lists can or can't do against your list, and other factions don't seem as relevant.
First it was the "Empire Archers will hit them on 6+ if they move" and now followed by a char-and-cav heavy list with very little shooting - of course your Pegasus-Wizards will excel against those, just as they would against VC and WoC-armies without any shooting and magic missiles.

But what against lists with actual chaff-clearance (or decent chaff themselves)?

One of my main opponents is Lizardmen. How long do you think a T3 Pegasus Wizard without saves would survive against 20-30 Skinks with poisoned Javelins who can march and shoot?

Another main opponent plays Tomb Kings. His skeletons can move/wheel 4" and shoot 30" while still hitting on 5+, then he might have the odd skirmishing bows, plus every other odd skeleton with a bow like the 'crew' of the Warsphinx, etc.

"Luckily" we don't really have many active elf-players in my gaminggroup, but both Wood Elves and High Elves have access to skirmishing infantry with Longbows (and even their ranked up infantry with Longbows will hit on 5+ if they move).
Dark Elf repeater crossbows aren't as effective, but both HE and DE have RBT's who hit on 4+ at long range (and wound on 3+).

My own dwarfs-list which often feature skirmishing Rangers, a bunch of Quarrellers and some warmachines (and Irondrakes - but they might be out of reach even with their 21" threatrange) would be able to either kill or zone them.

Against these overall pretty common armies mentioned above, how would you keep your Pegasus Wizards alive, with the exception of simply holding them so far that they can't be targeted (but will be out of range themselves)?

Edit: Realized that I might come across as a bit snippy which isn't intended. If you find that they work in your gaminggroup, great, more power to you - but if I where to field something similar, it would just be points in the trashbin, hence my initial list-"fix/change" of having more wizards that can be protected via Loner.

[Athiuen]

T3 Pegasus Wizard

Wizard Lord is T 4
Pegasus gives +1 W

It's moderately durable at T4 4W if you manage your LOS.

[Minsc]

T3 Pegasus Wizard

Wizard Lord is T 4
Pegasus gives +1 W

It's moderately durable at T4 4W if you manage your LOS.

You're absolutely right, but we're still discussing his army in the OP, where he's using two Master Mages on Pegasuses...Pegasi? So they're T3 W3.

[Footpatrol2]

I believe if he keeps the Pegasus models near the knights within 3 inches and not be the closest target they cannot be shot. But if the model count drops below 5 of a knight unit the Pegasus can be shot..

So you got that at least.

[Athiuen]

T3 Pegasus Wizard

Wizard Lord is T 4
Pegasus gives +1 W

It's moderately durable at T4 4W if you manage your LOS.

You're absolutely right, but we're still discussing his army in the OP, where he's using two Master Mages on Pegasuses...Pegasi? So they're T3 W3.

You're right. I can't even imagine taking a Lvl 2 so I just blanked out that option in my mind.

[commandant]

So these are valid points. Its not that I do play against a lot of Empire but that there are full lists on this fourm that are easy enough to get.

I also considered the 1250 point wood elf list on this fourm which has only one shooting unit and figured thay would not be overly difficult and obviously (infernal puppet aside) this list would go reasonably against the chaos list I faced last.

30 poison skinks is indeed a serious threat. I assume they are deployed in 3 groups of 10 or maybe 2 groups of 15. I don't know what the leadership of a skink is but I imagine it isn't very high. Would it be possible to advance behind the archer screen until you could pop out and fire your magic missile.
A single magic missile has a reasonable chance of butchering a group of ten skinks and forcing a panic test. (If deployed in a group of 10 you need to kill 3)

This list is likely to be weak against tomb kings, mostly because of the lots of 5+ shooting.   In that instance it might be worth advancing them flanking the Inner Circle knights so they can't be shot.

[commandant]

I have been thinking about the idea of overwhelming force rather than speed.   There have been good points made about the speed not being as protective as I thought.   Therefore I give you a 2000 point list which is all the magical nonsense.

===
All the wizards [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Empire of Man
===

++ Characters [971 pts] ++

General of the Empire [188 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- On foot
- Bedazzling Helm
- The White Cloak

Wizard Lord [210 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- On foot
- Talisman of Protection
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

Master Mage [110 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- On foot
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

Master Mage [110 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- On foot
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

Master Mage [140 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- On foot
- Wizard's Staff
- Ruby Ring of Ruin
- Daemonology

Master Mage [110 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 2 Wizard
- On foot
- Wizard's Staff
- Daemonology

Captain of the Empire [103 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Battle Standard Bearer
- On foot
- Dragon Bow

++ Core Units [599 pts] ++

30 Veteran State Troops [275 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Sergeant (champion)
- Standard bearer [Banner of Iron Resolve]
- Musician

15 State Troops [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

15 State Troops [90 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

12 State Troops [72 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

12 State Troops [72 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Halberds
- Light armour
- Detachment

++ Special Units [430 pts] ++

25 Empire Greatswords [305 pts]
- Great weapons
- Full plate armour
- Count's Champion (champion) [Shroud of Iron]
- Standard bearer
- Musician

Great Cannon [125 pts]
- Great cannon
- Hand weapons


____________________________________________________________________

The idea is to deploy the wizards a bit like regimental batteries alongside the infantry.   So it would deploy as




The idea is that the detachments are fairly far back and thus make them difficult to charge.   The wizards are slightly behind the front line and offer fire support for the main combat blocks.   Each of the main combat blocks get 2 master mages in fire support.   The chance of you pushing your way through a level 4 is 45% so it is reasonable to assume that each Level 2 will cast roughly 33% of the time (sometimes they don't get the spell off and sometimes it is dispelled)

The idea I think is to try and force the opponent to charge the combat blocks.   I'm thinking the general goes with the halberdiers and the BSB with the greatswords.

[drweir4]

I think the challenge with lots of slow foot wizards at lv2 protected by slow foot infantry is that it’s going to be pretty easy for 1 enemy lv4 to shut them all down. Lets say it’s one of the ones with +1 to dispel which is about half the time lol and then you are still only going to get off probably under half of your spells

I believe empire magic spam can work but the most powerful spells are often the buffing ones not the damage ones. I’d do it with 3 lv4 on mounts in an all cav list (including outriders to help with babysitting)

[The Peacemaker]

Well, I respect your commitment to make state troops work. Lol. Let us know how your battles go. Maybe you'll find a build and tactic that works.

[commandant]

So I took this list to the Eurobash where I faced Orges and (after cutting it down to 1500 points) Empire.   Needless to say it got bashed around a lot, losing both games quite badly.   They were fun however.   As with all great military defeats no real lessons were learned.   (well some lessons were learned.)

They are as follows.

1: The infantry units might be a little large.   Given that the detachments are basically there as attack additions it could be worth cutting them down to 24 for the main infantry block and cutting the detachments to 10 models each.   The infantry with its detachments performed well against the Ogres.   The veteran infantry held up an Ogre Tyrant on a massive mammoth thing, a unit of bulls and a ironguts for four rounds of combat.   The veteran infantry block also took a charge from a unit of pistoliers, a unit of knights and an infantry block and ran (because I rolled 2 12s one after the other).

2: The infantry is hard to keep together.   In the Orge game the greatswords with their detachment swept one side of the board, killing a unit of Yetees, a unit of lead bleachers and a unit mobile dog things (not sure this is what they are called).   But this carried them too far away from the veteran halberdiers to be able to get back in time for that dogpile.

3: All the wizards didn't have a lot of targets.   This is partly a problem with the orge army being small and with "The Summoning" being a 15 inch spell.   However it might be worth considering have some movement spells to keep the infantry together.