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Author Topic: Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions  (Read 3410 times)

Offline BK

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2005, 04:57:31 PM »
Quote from: Defender of Ulthuan
I think magic army are the best..
Why I say this?

One wizard lord can kill say around 10 models per turn, when a Elector or Grand Master can kill 2-3 models per turn..

I dont know why I said this but I did..
Magic backed up with Guns and Mortars, the way Empire should be played...

Give me a handgun over a sword anyday..

Maybe the same reason why modern day armies have guns and not swords and shields...


From a pure power-player point of view:
Guns and magic only can not hold a line - both are lot luck dependant so simply put few bad rolls and you are in trouble.

Key to winning in WHFB (and in real world also combat also) is to reduce luck to a minimum posible.

That is a reason why item like Staff of Change are hated - they seriously reduce luck factor when dealing with magic. Empire has no SoC, hence it has to have at least some serious fighting force - GB Swordsmen block/block of good cavalry/tank even if magic+shooting dominate.

PS. - one of the easiest armyes for me to beat are "Four-high-elf-mages-from-hell-and-four-bolters-also" armies... Limit damage he can do with magic (DS), shot his war machines with yours and steamroll with your cavalry/tank/infantry blocks over whatever has remained...

Offline Gwaihir

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2005, 08:36:28 PM »
@General:True, a good commander wouldnt rely on the school of engineers, but (im talkin fluff wise) humans are advancing rapidly for their time and thus are becoming more lazy or dependent on technology.
Therefore we ( the empire) is becoming more of a technological empire, so you cant say a good general wouldnt rely on this.

Anyways, to be more on topic,(lol)I think we should have magic weapos, but not as much.Its not very magical if every general in the empire has one.

And for books on King Arthur and stuff, I would read Sir Thomas Malory's  stuff ( though i havnt really read it, but im too young to understand it) cause i think its based on the original.
<Tactician>

Cause I dont ever wanna leave a game without at least sayin goodbye.

Offline Schwarz

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2005, 09:15:46 PM »
I don't believe that magic weapons don't belong in an Empire army, but there are simply too many of them. Or rather, too many opportunities to use them. All the weapons mentioned in this thread are wielded by legendary figures: returning kings and their ilk. Each item has its own detailed past and, well, character I suppose. You don't get the same sense of mystery and wonder with Sword of Power (40 points): +2 Strength.

And because normal magic weapons are 'the norm', weapons occupying the same status as Narsil in the Warhammer world have to be even more powerful to stand out from the crowd. Take Ghal Maraz. I can see what Pendragon was getting at – regardless of who's holding the thing almost anybody on the other end gets reduced to pate, unless they've gone to even more extreme lengths to get tooled up. Heroes don't win one-on-one challenges, their equipment list does. Which is rather a shame, in my opinion.

In an ideal fantasy world, magic would be austere and scarce, an awe-inspiring thing understood by only a few and wielded by even fewer. Unfortunately, the warhammer world is supersaturated with the stuff, thanks to Chaos being nothing but it. Just one of those things, I guess.
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I've really gone off Pratchet. [...] Night Watch, which I also read recently, was horrible.

Offline Elkwyn

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2005, 11:20:03 PM »
You're right, that's probably more what I'm trying to get at Shwarz.  That magic weapons should be more reserved for really important people, not your everyday Captain and Duke.  And all the aforementioned weapons, Excalibur, Jouesue, Narsil, are more mythical than magical, and if magical very subtly.  Excalibur had no actualy power, it was only unbreakable, for example.  And as shown by King Arthur, he didn't want Excalibur and its more magical protective scabbard because it gave him an unfair advantage over his opponents, and was "unknightly."
"Less power, more force."

Offline Lord Etharion

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2005, 06:05:16 AM »
But what Shwartz is describing is inevitable unless you want magic item entries to read like:
Quote

Durendal: 150pts.
This sword is filled with mysterious and holy power.
When we said mysterious, we meant it. If you equip a character with the sword, its power will be manifested by a seroius of inexplicable coincidences on the battlefield. Or maybe it won't.


If you want to include stuff in a game, you have to quantify it. And once you quantify its properties, there can't be anything mysterious.
Quote from: Shadowlord
Moo-moo land here I come.
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I only wish moo-moo land didn't have an internet connection.

Offline BAWTRM

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2005, 10:08:55 AM »
A very well made point Lord Etharion!

Another thing, Schwarz said "In an ideal fantasy world, magic would be austere and scarce..."

In whose ideal fantasy world? Maybe in his, maybe in that of other people but as it seems not in the world of GW.

This isn't really a problem but it's something you've got to work with. When you and your friends don't like a lot of magic you can minimize it in your battles and thereby create your own fantasy setting, but when you play against someone else and he uses a lot of magic you cannot really say "You shouldn't do that, it's not right." and you probably wouldn't. You would more likely think "More points in magic means less in troops!".

I've been Gamemaster to several Roleplaying groups and I've run all kinds of settings. From a very low magic setting where a +1 sword is a supremely prized posession and a spell scroll is an ancient artifact to a high magic setting where magic is part of everyday life and is used as such. Both things appeal to people on a different level.

The thing is, GW made this particular setting, they are the gamemaster and they've decided the impact they want magic to have on their world. So there isn't really a wrong or right about it, it's just the way the game is.
When this would become an unsurpassable problem I think people would find a different game. Warhammer Ancients for instance.
"...granted it isn't as retarded as having a lady popping out of your head holding a cup while humping a boar with a sword through its back, but there can only be one Brettonia."

PhillyT

Offline RGB

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2005, 06:33:43 PM »
Well I don't know. Magic that's austere and rare is just in better taste, IMO, but as you said, not every setting needs to be the same and it's not as if WH is stellar in terms of storytelling.

But it isn't too bad, considering. They don't have whole batallions of mages, at least, and a wizard is not a WMD. The magic items are a bit overpowered, but not hugely.

In any case, the setting is fairly consistent, this odd renaissance steampunk, and for what it's worth, it works. In fact I'm happy with most things in WH except, er, the Lady of the Lake and the way Chaos armies look. They're just tacky.
[in the good of life]

Offline Schwarz

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2005, 11:09:30 PM »
Quote from: Lord Etharion
Durendal: 150pts.
This sword is filled with mysterious and holy power.
When we said mysterious, we meant it. If you equip a character with the sword, its power will be manifested by a seroius of inexplicable coincidences on the battlefield. Or maybe it won't.


My sentiments exac... hey, hang on a moment.

I meant mysterious in the same way as unexplained science - in the way that a tricorder and a rusty iron rod with a star on the end are basically the same myth*. You can still quantify its effects, but how it works is mysterious and, even when quantified, its effects should be rare.

Magic, when wall to wall, to me starts to feel rather tacky, to be honest.
And when it's coming out the walls with big tenticles you get Chaos. And that ain't a pretty sight, in my opinion.

* Graham Nelson, Craft of Adventure
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
I've really gone off Pratchet. [...] Night Watch, which I also read recently, was horrible.

Offline Elkwyn

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2005, 12:23:57 AM »
Well, I guess it can be safe to say magic has been toned down since 5th edition.  *Cringes at the thought of those auto hit, auto wound, wound reflecting, 3+ ward behemoths.*
"Less power, more force."

Offline Lord Etharion

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2005, 12:55:31 AM »
Personally, I think the magic wand/tricorder comparison is more proof that star trek is rubbish than anything else, but that's another discussion.

My real point is, okay, you've conceded that magic should be quantified, but that it should be rare. However, once it is quantified, surely it can be up to the player in control of the army how much magic they want? And furthermore, even if they want only a few magic items, shouldn't they get plenty of choice as to which magic items? So that, basically, you get the rarity of magic you want, while somone else gives magic items to everyone because it makes him feel his army is fantastical.

As to whether magic is 'wall to wall', well, on the battlefield (fluff or tabeltop) it isn't, as RGB pointed out three posts above. And it's a pretty moot point as to whether or not it is in the fluff either, since we hear next to nothing about day-to-day life.

Seems to me the solution to any concerns you have (although you seem mostly to have raised this for the sake of debate) is just take less magic items if you so desire.
Quote from: Shadowlord
Moo-moo land here I come.
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I only wish moo-moo land didn't have an internet connection.

Offline Schwarz

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2005, 10:53:57 AM »
Quote from: Lord Etharion
Personally, I think the magic wand/tricorder comparison is more proof that star trek is rubbish than anything else

I am well aware of this fact, but the example was lifted from elsewhere.

My personal preference for fluff is, well, my personal preference for fluff. I realise I can't enforce my will on GW. Or the people that influence them. It's just that in all the examples that were bouncing around, magic swords came second to the actual skill of the heroic individual in question. Standard humans (and even the apparent reincarnation of Sigmar, though I have doubts) need(ed, in his case,) a +2 A, auto-wound, no armour save, causes D3 wounds weapon to be taken seriously. How did Sigmar win battles before Kurgan Ironbeard gave him the thing?

And magic isn't wall to wall - mostly. Chaos should serve as a warning to us all.
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
I've really gone off Pratchet. [...] Night Watch, which I also read recently, was horrible.

Offline queek

  • The Old Ones
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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2005, 02:39:22 PM »
Quote from: Schwarz
And when it's coming out the walls with big tenticles you get Chaos. And that ain't a pretty sight, in my opinion.


or anime.

mmmmm, tentacles. . . . .

Offline Lord Etharion

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2005, 12:49:31 AM »
Quote from: queek
mmmmm, tentacles. . . . .


Just when you think you know a guy... :shudder:

Quote from: Shwartz
Standard humans (and even the apparent reincarnation of Sigmar, though I have doubts) need(ed, in his case,) a +2 A, auto-wound, no armour save, causes D3 wounds weapon to be taken seriously. How did Sigmar win battles before Kurgan Ironbeard gave him the thing?


He had an axe, which he used to liberate Kurgan Ironbeard. Magnus the pious also didn't use a magic weapon (or if he did, it wasn't a very famous one).

I must confess I'm not sure what point it is you are trying to make, but if you are bemoaning the fact that humans combat effectiveness is seemingly solely determined by how magical their weapons are, there's a simple reason for that: The WHFB setting. Roland didn't need a WMD because he was fighting other humans (I think?) same with Arthur. In LOTR, Men are a Superior Race (especially Aragorn's line), so he doesn't need an especially awesome sword: he's got Manliness!

However, in WHFB, perhaps more so than any other setting I've seen, humanity is smaller, weaker or stupider than most others, as such their heroes are rather limited in their natural capacities. So in those cases of special characters, etc, who ought to previal against the nastiest the world can offer, the slack is picked up by magic items.
Quote from: Shadowlord
Moo-moo land here I come.
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
I only wish moo-moo land didn't have an internet connection.

Offline BAWTRM

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2005, 09:00:20 AM »
Quote
Well, I guess it can be safe to say magic has been toned down since 5th edition. *Cringes at the thought of those auto hit, auto wound, wound reflecting, 3+ ward behemoths.*


Tell me about it, the 5th Ed. Hydra Sword was glued to the hand of every general in our gaming group.

For the people who don't know, the Hydra Sword made every hit into d6 hits. Chaos Generals, Vampires (with stats more akin to the current Dragons) etc. could literally kill an entire regiment of troops in a single combat phase.

We used to play 3000 pts games but we had the same amount of troops (or less) then we do now in 2000 pts, all the excess was in characters and their magic items....... :blergh:
"...granted it isn't as retarded as having a lady popping out of your head holding a cup while humping a boar with a sword through its back, but there can only be one Brettonia."

PhillyT

Offline General Helstrom

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2005, 09:06:50 AM »
Keep in mind too that everything - bar War Machines - was more expensive in 5th Ed. My 3000 point army had suddenly been reduced to barely 2000 points worth :shock: Good thing that this became the new "standard points value" in the game!

Oh, and as the Hydra Sword was glued to the hand, so was the Crown of Command glued to the head! There must have been huge slave-operated factories churning the things out by the hundreds back then. Those, and the Black Gem of Gnar of course :blergh:
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Offline BAWTRM

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2005, 09:22:58 AM »
True, any non LD 10 general had that crown on his head.

What was the name again of that 4+ Ward save that bounced back wounds for every succesfull save you made with it?

Standard equipment for my general....
"...granted it isn't as retarded as having a lady popping out of your head holding a cup while humping a boar with a sword through its back, but there can only be one Brettonia."

PhillyT

Offline Elkwyn

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Magic Weapons and how they fit in with the Human Factions
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2005, 05:02:19 PM »
@ BAWTRM- 'Twas the Black Amulet.  
I've heard Wood Elven horror stories of the Chimera riding Orc Lord with that bugger, as I never actually met it in person.

And about magic weapons, I'm warming back up to them again, but just the more "subtle" common ones.  The start of this thread was probably just a phase I was going through.   :shock:
"Less power, more force."