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Author Topic: "Bus formation"  (Read 4516 times)

Offline Melvin the Melvin

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"Bus formation"
« on: January 22, 2005, 03:30:40 PM »
Atchman's (relatively to the time of the battle) recently posted battle report shows Meridian General's unit of 20 Griffon Spearmen deployed in a "bus formation", four models wide and in five ranks. I've pondered this deployment, and I see nothing but advantages. To remove a point of rank bonus from such a unit, you need to kill five models, while to remove rank bonus from a typical formation of 20 models five wide, you only need to kill two. Empire infantry doesn't need a wide frontage, since we want as few attacks exchanged by normal troops as possible, since most enemy attack units WILL be better than our infantry in terms of stats. Still, I see few people fielding units like this, which begs the question: what are the drawbacks of such a formation?
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Offline Kaz

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2005, 03:34:41 PM »
Most of all that if you have full command in the unit you can't place two characters in the unit
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Offline Kulgan

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2005, 03:53:12 PM »
Drawbacks :
Sometimes you'll be facing inferior opponents where you actually might benefit from having more models in base to base contact.

Bus formation looks kinda goofy + with a 5 wide frontage it's divided so niceley: trooper - musician - standard - champion - trooper

Offline Lamen

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2005, 04:08:55 PM »
If you want big units of around 30, the long flanks make them difficult to manouver, and easier to be flanked.

What is more, you have to remember that Empire troops are quite average, and against a lot of armies (Elves, Greenskins, humans, rats, undead and sometimes dwarfs) if I put spearmen 7 wide then the 15 attacks will quite possibly add a few points to CR. If I put a warrior priest with GW and IoM in this unit then against undead it is a real monster for the deadites.

Offline Midaski

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2005, 04:39:31 PM »
That's the advantage of the numbers 24, you can play with the formation depending on opponent.
24 can go 'bus' 4 x 6, or 6 x 4.

30 is also fairly flexible as you can go 'bus' 5 x 6, or 6 x 5.

It's probably a 'tournament flexibility' that gives large unit armies, and especially Empire with our detachments an extra edge.

There's another current running thread about Brets hitting Empire infantry units where a narrow frontage is deemed a very useful tactic against simultaneous charges from separate Bret Knight units.
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Offline bofto

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2005, 04:56:13 PM »
The big problem with "busses" is that they seem really silly.  It's just one of those little things that my buddies would not let me live down.  It seems pandering to the statistical element in the game.  Not even the fluff, but the basic idea of "kill enemy" seems totally ignored.  It's concidered a pansy/wanker thing to do by my friends.
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Offline TheBuilder

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2005, 05:05:32 PM »
I just couldnt bring myself to field a unit like that...besides if your enemy is at least 6 wide you are allowing them two extra attacks
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Offline Gwaihir

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2005, 05:17:13 PM »
I think it wouldnt be that bad if you had 2 detachments that had 8-10 in them.This would protect the flanks and would let your unit squeeze through tight spots in big battles.Then, when you plan to charge a weak enemy 1 or 2 turns before you actually charge you can change up the formation.
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"Bus formation"
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2005, 05:26:53 PM »
Quote from: bofto
The big problem with "busses" is that they seem really silly.  It's just one of those little things that my buddies would not let me live down.  It seems pandering to the statistical element in the game.  Not even the fluff, but the basic idea of "kill enemy" seems totally ignored.  It's concidered a pansy/wanker thing to do by my friends.


Just like using a hellblaster, or - gob forbid - having detachments, I'd guess... :roll:

I don't have this issue however, since I normally have units of 25 men in quartered formation anyway.

Offline jlutin

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2005, 05:32:34 PM »
Sure it looks funny, and it's not a one size fits all tactic, but it's useful.

In any combat that I am going to see serious casualties from HTH I do it.  Against chariots?  It's of no value.  Shooting?  Again no value.

But against a nasty knight charge or fighting things on large bases (ie ogres) it might limit the number of attacks somewhat.  At the very least, it gives you more ranks for a longer time.
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Offline FrancisC05

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2005, 06:08:54 PM »
I usually see the bus formation when somebody doesn't have enough models to field huge units of infantry.

Against many units it works well. Honestly how often do your swordsman kill orcs or chaos warriors. Empire infantry wins through cr not through actually killing anything, at least for me.

Offline Melvin the Melvin

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2005, 06:30:54 PM »
Hm... Thanks for the replies. More to the point, do you think it's viable to field two battallions of 20 Swordsmen, both regiments in bus formation, in a 1000 point game?
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Offline fp

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2005, 06:36:39 PM »
have you ever play against malakay's hoblin hewer? 6 ranks... OMG...
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Offline Melvin the Melvin

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2005, 06:42:57 PM »
Quote from: fp
have you ever play against malakay's hoblin hewer? 6 ranks... OMG...


It's a RoR, it can't be fielded in most tournaments, and me and my friends play mostly tournament rules. Although bolt throwers could be a major issue, then again, when you know you're going up against them, you can deploy 5 wide.
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Offline Ronnie Soak

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2005, 06:46:05 PM »
You shouldnt need to worry about bolt throwers and cannons as they will put on the flanks to take out more harmful stuff (knights knights and knights). So in most situations bus formation is better against bolt throwers.

Offline Calimehter

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2005, 07:26:39 PM »
Quote from: bofto
the basic idea of "kill enemy" seems totally ignored.  It's concidered a pansy/wanker thing to do by my friends.


You could always point out the fact that the good folks at GW who designed and playtested Empire infantry ALSO ignored the "kill enemy" factor, so you are just following their lead.  :lol:

Offline Lamen

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2005, 08:22:58 PM »
Quote
That's the advantage of the numbers 24, you can play with the formation depending on opponent.
24 can go 'bus' 4 x 6, or 6 x 4.

30 is also fairly flexible as you can go 'bus' 5 x 6, or 6 x 5.


The thing is though, that is if you want to look neat at the start of the game. However, there is nothing to stop having a unit of 27, with an odd number of models at the back. So, often when I make a list I will make all infantry units 25 strong, and then with any spare points I add a few models on, just to add survivability to the unit.

Also, on an unrelated note it is not at all abusive to use a bus formation. Infantry armies need some kind of trump when playing cavalry armies, and this can help a lot, although it does not make the infantry army sure to win. Not only that, but Historically a similar formation was used, most famously by Bonaparte, but other generals did the same. Not that it was used historically for the reasons that We would use it for :wink:

Offline Melvin the Melvin

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2005, 09:00:35 PM »
Quote from: Lamen
Not only that, but Historically a similar formation was used, most famously by Bonaparte, but other generals did the same. Not that it was used historically for the reasons that We would use it for :wink:


Ooh. Sources, please? (not that I'm questioning the truth of that statement, I'm just interested)
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Offline Lamen

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2005, 09:52:28 PM »
Online I have no idea, do a google search. My entire and extensive knowledge of history earlier history is from Bristol library, and Salisbury library.

Bonaparte did it to instill fear in his enemies. When someone saw a column of men marching towards them, they would realise that nothing would be able to stop them. Wellington did not believe this, and was subsequently able to defeat the French at waterloo by putting his forces in a long line.

Offline Rustoof

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2005, 11:28:05 PM »
Well, a key part to Macedonian victories (EG Phillip and Alexander) was deepening the phalanx considerably.

Not sure why, but its obvious it worked.
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"Bus formation"
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2005, 11:43:44 PM »
One word: Buffer

Offline Polymphus

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2005, 11:45:58 PM »
Hagen can I ask what your siggie means? its been driving me mad
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"Bus formation"
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2005, 12:00:48 AM »
Quote from: Polymphus
its been driving me mad


Why that? :lol:

Offline Polymphus

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2005, 12:11:21 AM »
because of somethingrather! and the bursars corkscrew :oops:
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Offline Polymphus

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"Bus formation"
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2005, 12:13:18 AM »
Hah!

If you permit,
thus introduce myself I you.
I am enrich man with much taste

I don't know what that means either!
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