Other Armies Using Detachments?

[Dendo_Star]

So I haven't been able to play in this new edition yet (lol barely finished buying models), but I am soaking up lots of content online - including battle reports.

Question for you all...are other armies not really using detachments? They don't seem to be. I know they're available to lots of armies now, but I'm not seeing people play them much. Granted, detachments are nerfed compared to what they once were...but they're still detachments dammit. I assumed any army that could use them WOULD use them. What have you all seen?

[sedobren]

Chaos dwarves can make them work, a main unit of infernal guard or ironsworn flanked by two units of infernal guarda with blunderbusses is doable. Not extremely competitive but it has its place (especially in a renegade list!)

[Griefbringer]

Many armies have rather limited selection of detachments, compared to Empire. Cases that come to my mind include:

- Dwarf Ironbreakers can take detachments of Irondrakes
- High Elf Spearmen can take detachments of Archers
- Khemrian Tomb Guards and Skeleton Warriors can take detachments of Skeleton Archers

Renegade Crowns however have plenty of options for detachments, as Sellsword Infantry can take detachments of other Sellsword Infantry, Empire Archers and Empire Free Company Militia.

[Damar]

I would assume Renegade Crowns can benefit from detachments a lot.

Reason for this is because you can kit up with shields and crossbows relatively cheaply for same model. So lets assume enemy charges your main block and you shoot them damage. Next turn you can pile up on flanks without really risking worse combat result because you can have 3+ save crossbow man for 9pts/model. (7pts for 4+ save)

Perhaps FAQ reduces Free Company to like 4pts a model and then they might actually useful as detachments.

[Perforated]

Next turn you can pile up on flanks without really risking worse combat result because you can have 3+ save crossbow man for 9pts/model. (7pts for 4+ save)

This is one of the things that really illustrate how over-costed Empire state troops are. We get the privilege of paying 8 ppm and then we get a 6+ save...

Perhaps FAQ reduces Free Company to like 4pts a model and then they might actually useful as detachments.

I might play around with FC if this happens. But I am not convinced they are worth it as detachments. Unless they can secure a flank charge you will still be looking at one S3 attack per model (only those in B2B get the full amount of attacks). And that attack is then hidden behind T3 and no armour save.

[Griefbringer]

Renegade Crowns detachments of sellsword infantry however have the disadvantage of low Leadership, as they are unlikely to benefit from the Horde and Warband special rules.

As regards Tomb Kings, they do not normally take too many Leadership tests - otherwise detaching Skeleton Archers (Ld 5) to Tomb Guard (Ld 7) could be worthwhile. One benefit for taking Skeleton Archers as detachments is that then the minimum unit size becomes 5 instead of 10 - but if you want units of 5 skeletons with warbows you could simply take Skeleton Skirmishers for the same prize per model (with the added benefit of getting Vanguard rule thrown in).

[Perforated]

Renegade Crowns detachments of sellsword infantry however have the disadvantage of low Leadership, as they are unlikely to benefit from the Horde and Warband special rules.

Detachments still get to use the Ld of the parent. So detachments in renegade crowns will have more or less the same Ld as the equivalent Empire troops.

[Damar]

Next turn you can pile up on flanks without really risking worse combat result because you can have 3+ save crossbow man for 9pts/model. (7pts for 4+ save)

This is one of the things that really illustrate how over-costed Empire state troops are. We get the privilege of paying 8 ppm and then we get a 6+ save...

Then again, getting 1pt cheaper infantry with custom options is the thing Renegade Crowns have. They do not have Stank, Warrior Priests, Griffin (or even bloody pegasus for that matter) or even auto-access to Empire magical items. If you give the same to Empire, what reason RC has to exist.

[Griefbringer]

I was under the impression that the Warband Ld bonus would not transfer to the detachments, but on reading the rules again I realised that I was wrong. So you can get pretty good Ld for a Renegade Crowns detachment as long as you keep them close to a big parent unit.

[Perforated]

Then again, getting 1pt cheaper infantry with custom options is the thing Renegade Crowns have. They do not have Stank, Warrior Priests, Griffin (or even bloody pegasus for that matter) or even auto-access to Empire magical items. If you give the same to Empire, what reason RC has to exist.

So Empire should just suffer under the yoke of overpriced and "bland" units then?

A point reduction is not the only solution. Rules could be also be added to give Empire units more flavor/identity/presence on the table.

[Damar]

Then again, getting 1pt cheaper infantry with custom options is the thing Renegade Crowns have. They do not have Stank, Warrior Priests, Griffin (or even bloody pegasus for that matter) or even auto-access to Empire magical items. If you give the same to Empire, what reason RC has to exist.

So Empire should just suffer under the yoke of overpriced and "bland" units then?

A point reduction is not the only solution. Rules could be also be added to give Empire units more flavor/identity/presence on the table.

Well, they could get option for stuff like Shieldwall. However, FAQ leaks only say this for Empire.

- Warrior Priests gain LD buff
- Flagellants gain T4

There is also generic chatter about point reductions for units but nothing Empire specific as of yet was heard.

[Dendo_Star]

Lol with Cathay being the new hotness, and Bretonnia a marquee faction, I fear we may be marginalized. At least somewhat.

But I can live w/ that. Makes it better to drink our foes tears with. I play a lot of Magic: The Gathering, and I don't use crazy super-duper spells or unlimited combos, but when I consistently beat my opponents w/ "fair" decks it makes those tears taste all that much sweeter.

[Damar]

Apparently Royal Peg gets changed to Monstrous Creature so you can no longer piggyback with Peg Knights so there is that.

[Dendo_Star]

Apparently Royal Peg gets changed to Monstrous Creature so you can no longer piggyback with Peg Knights so there is that.

Good! Peg Knights need to be kept in check. It's so easy for a unit of heavy flyers to be broken.

[Tiberius]

Toughness 4 Flagellants and Higher Leadership priests would make me so happy.  I really hope it's true!  Bring back the Faith in Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder!

[Dendo_Star]

Toughness 4 Flagellants and Higher Leadership priests would make me so happy.  I really hope it's true!  Bring back the Faith in Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder!

We're gonna need it. We can't look like chumps when Magnus shows up.

[Griefbringer]

Would it be possible to keep this discussion on the detachments, and keep the January Errata changes discussion to the other thread?

[Griefbringer]

As for the Dwarf Irondrakes, they are rather strong when doing Stand & Shoot charge reaction, which could make them worthwhile as a detachment to do supporting fire for the Ironbreakers - as long as you can manage to deploy them in a way where the enemy will charge the parent regiment rather than the detachment.

[Damar]

I was under the impression that the Warband Ld bonus would not transfer to the detachments, but on reading the rules again I realised that I was wrong. So you can get pretty good Ld for a Renegade Crowns detachment as long as you keep them close to a big parent unit.

Tilean Stoicism (stubborn) extends to detachments too (while parent unit has it) so that gives extra benefit for Renegade Crown quite easily compared to empire.

In Empire you would need Greatswords or 50pt magical banner (25pt in Nuln) for same result while RC does the same with 60pt character.

[Griefbringer]

I have to admit that I did not think about Tilean Stoicism - combining that character with big unit could also give the parent unit and detachments up to Ld 10 with Warband bonuses.

Ironbreakers also have Stubborn that they can pass to their detachments, though in practice this does not matter as the Irondrakes already have Stubborn to begin with.

[Dendo_Star]

Overall, I'm not hearing a lot of observations of other armies using detachments of infantry to counter charge.

Interesting.

[commandant]

I was under the impression that the Warband Ld bonus would not transfer to the detachments, but on reading the rules again I realised that I was wrong. So you can get pretty good Ld for a Renegade Crowns detachment as long as you keep them close to a big parent unit.

Tilean Stoicism (stubborn) extends to detachments too (while parent unit has it) so that gives extra benefit for Renegade Crown quite easily compared to empire.

In Empire you would need Greatswords or 50pt magical banner (25pt in Nuln) for same result while RC does the same with 60pt character.

I'm not sure that the RC needing 60 points (and from their character rather than core allotment) is an improvement.

Weaker base leadership is a problem (though we have been over this before in the discussion about state troops v M@A) because warband Ld can be disrupted at important moments reasonably easily.

Overall, I'm not hearing a lot of observations of other armies using detachments of infantry to counter charge.

Interesting.

Generally people are quite conservative in their army building. Other armies are not used to having detachments to play with so don't.  Many online Empire players were very dismissive of counter charging detachments and this could have impacted on other armies as well.

I find that counter charging halberiders are very good but then I like infantry in general.
Certainly now that ridden monsters are worse due to the change in the challenge rules counter charging detachment have gotten even better

[sedobren]

The single greatest issue with counter charging detachments is space on the board, even a detachment that is 5 man wide (like in two ranks, so at least you negate the rank bonus) makes the combined detachment+main unit thing quite wide and not so easy to fit in between other units an terrain; in particular is not just fitting the problem, it's having enough space to complete the flanking charge.

Also it's not uncommon to make a supporting charge simply on the front because the charging unit is large enough, or to be blocked by your own unit as they moved differently, or got separated for one reason on another. It's not bad but it's certainly worse than charging on the side.

I've usually used or seen detachments run as basically a smaller unit of something you don't necessarily need a command group in, while in exchange gaining the leadership of the parent unit, one less drop during deployment, and sometimes getting to do a supporting charge.

Conveniently renegade crowns have a little advantage here, as they have the phalanx rule so your main unit (or your detachment should want to) can be just 4 models wide and as deep as you want, so you can have some very narrow units and use quite large detachments. Plus they can have shooting detachments that are ok in melee, like heavy armour, crossbow and shield so you don't need one of each if you want options.

Regarding the stubborn thing, it's cheap after all. For 60 pts you get one character (with ld8 base) and stubborn, which is cheaper than the empire (45 pts for a captain and 50 or 25 pts for the banner depending on the army list you use). Plus you can use this more than one time, it's not limited to one unit, and as you can give those upgrades to wizards as well, it's not like you need a specific character to do this. It's just 20 pts you spend on any character you want, and you usually need st least one, so it's cheaper.

[Griefbringer]

Overall, I'm not hearing a lot of observations of other armies using detachments of infantry to counter charge.

Skeleton archer detachments are hardly ideal units for counter charging, better used for suporting fire.

High elf archer detachment would be slightly better in close combat (WS 4), but most of the time you probably still prefer keeping them shooting.

Dwarf irondrakes may be able to hold their own in close combat (dwarves with full plate armour and stubborn), but they also have a very strong short range shooting attack, so you probably prefer them to do supporting fire. Plus their parent unit of ironbreakers is likely to manage pretty decently in close combat on their own.

Renegade crown sellsword infantry detachments can be kitted out either for shooting or close combat, depending on preference.

[Qrab]

The single greatest issue with counter charging detachments is space on the board, even a detachment that is 5 man wide (like in two ranks, so at least you negate the rank bonus) makes the combined detachment+main unit thing quite wide and not so easy to fit in between other units an terrain; in particular is not just fitting the problem, it's having enough space to complete the flanking charge.

A potential solution to this that I want to try is to deploy the detachments in a 4x3 formation to give them a slightly smaller footprint. Similar to the 3x3 detachments from 6th edition.