Topic: The Province of WISSENLAND

[Midaski]

The southernmost province of the Empire, where the Countess tends to spend most of her time at Nuln. The province is triangular in shape, bounded by the Black and Grey Mountains on two sides, and the River Reik on the third. and also  encompasses the old province of Solland, or Sudenland as it is referred to sometimes now.

Library Link:  http://warhammer-empire.com/library/aisforaltdorf/the-grand-county-of-wissenland/

Current Ruler: Elector Countess Emmanuelle von Liebwitz
Capital: Wissenberg
Province Colours:  Grey and White



Map Link: (Colour)  http://www.fys.ku.dk/~blicher/Wissenland_v2.jpg
    (Black & White)  http://www.fys.ku.dk/~blicher/Wissenland_v2_bw.jpg


Notes:
Incorporates the old Province of Solland

[wissenlander]

A place to call my own!  Love this idea Midaski, great work.

I'm by no means an official Wissenland representative, but it's been my one and only Imperial army.  I've done work on it for the past five years now on and off.

I have created a fortress town at the intersection of the Upper Reik and the Oggel Rivers named Brennenburg (area of influence marked in red).


A link for the timeline can be found here: http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=6679.0  It only goes up to the War of Ostermark Succession unfortunately.  I get side tracked somewhat easy upon occasion.

The current Graf of the town is the young Gerhard Olenbay.  I'm currently writing a story now that introduces him.  That can be found here:  http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=14901.0

I also wrote a series of short stories surrounding the War of Ostermark Succession and Graf Wolfgard Olenbay.  That can be found here: http://www.warhammer-empire.com/content/view/70/46/

I have also created my own knightly order known as the Wissengaurd.  Here's what I have on them so far:

The Wissenguard was formed not too long after Gorbad Ironclaw's destruction of the realm of Solland.  Wissenland being effected greatly as well reeled from the destruction.  A knight by the name of Agis Tolzen swore that he would never allow the destruction of his province to occur again.  He had a small retinue of knights (the order is now unknown) and they all swore to defend Wissenland unto death.

They are seperate from the Countess, for long ago it was seen that the Elector's wishes could be different from that of the province.  The Grandmaster does not have to pay homage to the Elector but usually does.

At this time the Grandmaster, Ulf Hochstahl, maintains strained relations with Emanuelle von Liebewitz.  He is a prideful man and rarely convenes to her court.  His second in command is his son Karsten Hochstahl, he's much more of a worldy man, a diplomat, very kind.  He and his father get along, they love one another but often disagree on how things should be done. 

It is a dishonor for a council of war to be convened without the presence of a member of the Wissenguard.  This is one of the biggest flaws of the order.  Since they feel that they have risked much in the protection of the realm, they should have a say in any large proceeding.  Karsten sees the folly in this and constantly clashes with his father on this issue.

It is a secular order, but most of the knights are devout Sigmarites and it is highly encouraged, but not mandatory.

The main chapter house is located on the outskirts of Wissenburg.  This was established to allow assistance to the Elector, where the seat of power should reside.

Notable people in the Wissenguard (the only ones I've really mentioned) from the past are.  Gunther Klaus Olenbay-killed in battle in 2105.  Reineir Olenbay, Graf Wolfgard's cousin and an Inner Circle knight who fought valiantly in the War of Ostermark Succession.

The colors are grey and white.  They believe firmly in the whole Wissenland thing.  Beyond that, each chapterhouse would have it's own color dileneating who's who (sort of like a White Wolf deal).  The White Lion is the symbol of Wissenland so will probably be the iconography, but it's still up for grabs.

[wissenlander]

This is a link that deals more with WFRP than WHFB: http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/94/52/1/16/.  Even still it does a decent job at giving the 'feel' for the province.  Historical information is very questionable as the two games  have diverted paths a while back, but any geography or economics are fine I would think.

[Veldemere]

Still no mention on any of the maps as to where the old borders were, i.e. before the greedy land grabbing tactics after the devastation reaked by the orcs or, (as I am sure the way you wold see it) when Wissenland took the people of Solland under their wing to help heal the wounds.

The only information I can find so far is that Bugmans was in Solland so I assume it was the lands south of there, but the book says much of what was Solland is now wasteland. The map does not seem to allow for much to the south as it seems to be totally hemmed in by mountains.

Any thoughts on a dotted line border of where Solland was?

[wissenlander]

I'd say it's the southern tip of Wissenland.  In one of the maps, I think it was put back into the latest edition, it cuts off part of Wissenland and says the former Realm of Solland.  Plus that's where the River Sol runs.  So basically I think it was a small strip in between the River and the mountains.  Weird as it was mostly devestated of all provinces, but furthest away from Black Fire Pass.  I guess Gorbad followed the mountains and swept back around to hit Nuln and then go towards Altdorf?

On another note, Pfeildorf used to be the capital of Sudenland.  Sudenland I believe was split between Averland and Wissenland.  This would mean that Wissenland would be where Solland was (under this thought process).

Once Solland was created though (only to be destroyed) Sudenland was taking out of the record books for several editions until the last edition where it was referenced on page 18 as a regional 'flavor' name.

Sudenland apparently has a strong showing in some novels.  Especially ones written by Jack Yeovil.  I hear they are probably some of the best novels put out by GW, but unfortunately do not corolate with our timeline at all.

I know this comes up a lot.  Sudenland/Solland stuff, so I'd actually like to adress a lot of it up front if possible.

[wissenlander]

Information on the Countess Emanuelle von Liebewitz can be found here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49420

A lot of the information if from Roleplay, but sometimes can be used for inspiration.  It's an interesting bit of information and shows the depth to the Roleplay universe.  I only wish Battle had that amount of depth.

[wissenlander]

For anyone who's interested in Solland, the map that I have displayed is where my guess it would be.  It's outlined by the blue.

My reasoning for the location is that I think the River Sol would be the northern most boundary.  Landmarks such as rivers would be used as a border and this is really the northernmost landmark that would be distinguishable.

The same reason for the cut off around Owingen and Wurmgrube near the Grey Mountains.  There is no other definable landmark any further up besides the tributary north of Pfeildorf.  This would cut Wissenland in half and I don't think that would be likely.

Conversely, based upon the landmark/river arguement, Sollands borders may not have stretched that far north/northwest and may have ended around the Augen - Kelgard -Nehren region.  But I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Any thoughts on this?

[Veldemere]

Great job and I approve of your logic. This would seem to be the logical layout. I know that traditionally towns were situated near rivers due to the trade/ transport benefits as well as irrigation possibilities for crops but I note with interest that your border places a lot of towns from opposing provinces close to each other (providing they existed at the time). I also agree with you about the northern border, I think it unlikely it would be any further north, what does surprise me is the large number of Karaks in the region as Bugmans is the only one that says it is disused are we to assume a strong dwarf presence in the area?

[wissenlander]

Yeah, there are quite a few villages that are relatively close.  But I guess there wasn't much of a choice in the matter.  As you said, the advantages of rivers outweighs anything else.  I don't know if those towns existed before the anexation, but probably so.

It seems odd that there are quite a few towns in the former Solland.  The fluff makes it seem like the place has never recovered.  The big blank area on the map where I wrote Solland is the area that was probably most effected since there is nothing for miles and miles around.  I read somewhere that someone theorized it was considered a 'tainted' or 'cursed' land which would explain the non resettlement.  That would be the only reason considering it's been 800 years since the invasion.  I find that to be too simplistic (on GW's terms though).  That much time would see some resettlement.  Especially by ambitious young Solland nobles such as yourself, Veldemere.

As far as the Karaks go, I would assume that a couple of those are abandoned, just not mentioned that they are.  The two main ones Karak Hirn and Karak Norn are still up and running as far as I know.  I believe there would be a lot of interaction between the folk of Wissenland (Solland) and the Dwarfs.  Towns especially close to the Karaks would benefit greatly from the trade that would take place.

Also, just a side note.  It was mentioned somewhere the Sudenland had a rich wool industry.  Once the transition happened maybe Solland had one as well?

[Veldemere]

Yes, the whold Sudenland does rather cloud the issue, it is still not clear to me whether it was just a confusion from one edition to another that it 'morphed' into Solland. If Wissenland were to be split into 3 it would not seem to be sustainable as a province as I am assuming that Elector Counts fund their lavish lifestyles (particularly Emanuelle) by taxation either on the populace or on trade. If one were not able to control a high enough populace one could net generate the monies to have any form of standing army (which would obviously be enhanced by militia). Are there any sources on where the provinces hold their state troops, I assume that city states have their own garrisons but there is scant information about the provinces.

[wissenlander]

As far as Sudenland goes, it was erased between 3rd and 4th edition.  Solland was instated only to be destroyed, it was never really a county that was alive.  They tried to sweep it under the table basically and only in the NEB do they adress it somewhat.

Kreutzhofen is a fort/castle.  There's a garrison there that I know of (commanded by Clarkarias. ).  Beyond that I'm not too sure as of now.

[Giladis]

Nice to more Sollanders. My alligence primarely lies with the Twin Thrones, than the Eternal Realm, followed by the Mage Priests, but I have a small Solland secesionists army (1673 pts), not from the Empire but from Wissenland.

I allwasy had the impression that the Border of Former Solland went like this:


Based on my knowdlege of the Empire (both WHFB and WHFRP) these are the borders between Wissenland and Sudenland before the second was absorbed into Wisseland a some years ago.



Based on the above map and information provided about Solland and Wissenland I personally believe these were the borders of Solland. I am not sure about the western border though I am inclined to say the northern line is correct on. Sudenland was made exclusevly out of land that once was part of Solland and recieved it electoral vote while the rest was given to Wissenland.



What do you think how close to truth I am?

[wissenlander]

From what I know of Sudenland, I think that is a fair representation of where it was located.  Sudenland seemed much more important than Wissenland.  One issue that I see though is that there was mention of parts of Sudenland being absorbed by Averland.  Based upon our current thought of natural boundaries this doesn't make much sense.

As far as the Sudenland to Solland issue and Solland being the 'new' Sudenland I would disagree for a couple of reasons.  First I believe I read somewhere (and Veldemere must have as well) that Bugman's Brewery was in the former Solland.  That is located on the south side of the River Sol. 

Also from the maps we have here, which I think are pretty acurate (for now) with Roleplay shows more sparsely populated land on the south side of the river.  There aren't many features that would draw inhabitants but if you look on the other side of the river there are quite a few towns and villages dotted along the landscape.  This could be due to roads running through the area, I'll admit, but the southern part seems to fit the desolate Solland.

One thing that just came to mind though.  I read on Critical Hit that Wissenland's origon was linked to Kreutzhofen Castle.  If this were the case that could throw a damper into the system somewhat since it conflicts with my theory.  That is definitely some support for your stance Giladis.

The only way that it could fit with my theory (for it to truely make sense) would be if the map looked something like this:

Under this amended border to the southeast, I would imagine Solland's border to stretch to it's furthest capacity up to Wurmgrube.

Thoughts?

[Giladis]

I went to look into all info I have on Sudneland, Wissenland and Solland I found this.

Following 1707 Solland was ravaged and on its ruins was Sudenland built, a fair bit of Solland was given to Wissenland. Now when in 2515 Sudenlands Electoress decided to unite with Wissenland for reasons still unknown. Sundenland was didvided between Wissenland and Averland. From that we can conclude that a portion of todays Averland was once Solland and my guess is the part that stands at the mouth of the Black Fire Pass, considering that Gorbad entered Solland when he left the pass.

The growing of power of Wissenland was indeed linked with Kreutzhofen. It is first mentioned in 1614 as a hamlet and was abandoned and resettled on several occasions untill 2107 (400 years after Gorbad) when it became a village and following the discovery of the Montdidier Pass that allowed "safe" trade with Bretonnia and Estalia that in return allowed Wissenland to get richer and more powerful.

So when all above is taken into conclusion I believe I provided acurate maps thought I should add some land in what is today Averland.

[wissenlander]

Interesting.  Where did that information come from?  I don't doubt it's authenticity for Roleplay, but in Battle terms Sudenland has been swept under the rug and only mentioned as as regional dialect talk.

[Giladis]

WHFRP v1 and v2.

Even if we drop the whole existance of Sudenland there is still a problem for your map. Gorbad went through the pass and entered Solland while today Averland guards that same entrance.

[wissenlander]

That seems to be pretty sound.

Is there any mentioning of when Averland gained access to Black Fire pass or is it one of our many educated guesses that we have to make?

The Battle of Solland's Crown would make more sense then as Solland's army didn't have to march across Wissenland to arrive at Averheim.  The Elector of Wissenland arriving at Altdorf isn't that big of a stretch considering Wissenburg's location.

I know the orc invasion force was large and it had to have been for a sacking of the Moot to the destruction of Solland.  Maybe there were two columns, one that went to attack the Moot and then Averheim lead by Gorbad and another that swung lower to hit Solland?

Very intriguing.  I had been flip flopping in which region that Solland was and for some time I had thought it was in the Northern part, but my recent study made me think it was in the south.  This is cool. 

OH, and at this rate you should be just as angry with with Averland, Veldemere.

[Giladis]

Ok I found some more stuff that change the story somewhat and borders. This change of sentiment and idea came from me once more going through the 6th ed EM AB.

Redefined borders of Solland


Border of Sudenland



I found something that slipped me before.

Sudenland was created after GWAC in 2303 almost 600 years after Solland disapeared mostly out of territories once held by Solland but also from areas that were part of Wissenland before it absorbed Solland. Creation of Sudenland was a reward for some noble that was a great hero during the war.

Also Solland and Averland once shared the entrance into the Black Fire Pass.

What do you think of these new borders.

[wissenlander]

I have no issue with them.  I don't have a lot of information about this stuff, and what I did have was what I based my origonal maps off of.  My only concern is, however, that most of the information that any of us can get is from WRP and that system often conflicts with WFB.

[Marcus Leitdorf]

Hey all,

I have some questions about Wissenland, and Reikland since they border one another. I have been contemplating locating a wizard lord, his tower, and his household guard somewhere in Wissenland, possibly near the Reikland border. The objective is to be able to have some Wissenland troops and even some Reikland troops included in my army along with the wizard's troops. Also, I hope to reasonably include some help from Nuln every now and then. I think that I can count on a dwarf ally every once in awhile too.

How does this sound so far? Is it in line with the backstory enough?

The problem I am having is that Wissenland and the area I am talking about seem to be relatively peaceful areas of the Empire. Most of the threat in the Warhammer world seems to emanate from the North and East these days. I know that orcs have come through Black Fire Pass in the past, but what about chaos threats such as beastmen, or threats from the undead. When I look at the maps there do not seem to be any vast expanses of deep woods to harbor any serious threats.

What threats do the surrounding mountains present that are in keeping with the backstory/fluff?

Just who are the enemies of the Empire to be dealt with in Wissenland?

How likely are Wissenland troops to participate in expeditions to support other provinces when their elector countess is a disinterested socialite living the highlife in Nuln?

By the way, I can very easily imagine a story of civil war in Wissenland as the result of the countess slipping into the cult of Slaneesh! After all, she is portrayed as a pleasure hungry individual interested only in fulfilling her wonton desires.

I am interested in your views on these things.

Thanks,

Marcus

[Giladis]

There should be no problem about it since I think Wizards Lords are apolotical as long they aren't nobles bound to certain province. The main enemy for that part would your average Greenskings and Beastmen from the Grey/Black mountains, also in the region is the Blood Keep the legendary former home of the Blood Dragons knightly order so roving Vampires could be threat.

Well Wissenlands state troops could be found anywhere where the countess sends them, but troops in the livery of Wissenland are also the ones of various nobles so there aren't any problems about that.

My own Solland secesions movement started in what was once Solland but after suffering a defeat in open conflict they now roam the empire on a terror campaign to try and force the Emperor to remove Solland from Wissenland.

[wissenlander]

Dang Solland lot, causing trouble.

That would be enough for a civil war right there.  There are probably an equal number Solland armies as Wissenland armies that are causing trouble out there.

Even though the Countess is uninterested in her province doesn't mean that Wissenland troops don't participate in the wider scope of things.  The Emperor puts out a call for troops and Emanuella probably has someone handle these sorts of things.

A Slaaneshi Countess, that would explain a lot.

[Giladis]

Hasn't Franz thrown his eye on the countess. Something about most eligable spinster in whole of the Empire. I mean KF was 35 in 2515, that would mean during SoC he was 42 and now he would have 45 or even more. I mean it is high time to get ofspring, unless he wants his sister son to become the heir of Reikland and Reiklands candidate for Emperor. The boy was 12/13 in 2515. That would mean he will soon be in his prime to take to power.

[wissenlander]

There were rumors of him having his eye on her.  She would have to be in her 40s at least as well I would think.  WFB hasn't adressed the issue of the Emperor's offspring very well thus far and frankly, it could get messy if not handled correctly.  Even if they slip unnamed guy into the throne if something happens to KF, it'll just make people angrier that their next Emperor is a no name.  Well unless one of the current Electors takes the crown.

[Giladis]

Todbringer sure looks as he could, but there is also the Cult of Sigmar. It might not be beyond them to try and puch one of the Arch-Lectors or even the Grand Teogonist for the position of the Emperor on the wing of their strengthening following SoC.

OT: I think main problem of warhamer is the good vs evil that has taken over over the past 2 editions. Chaos shouldn't be such a threat, I mean it is babaric tribes from the north with some supernatural beasts. Wars between Empire, Bretonnian, High Elves and even Dwarfs should be common. A true free for all with each power trying to become dominant through war, diplomacy, war, trade and then some more war.