Topic: TEG4: Sammay's All-Cavarly Tactical Thread (Empire only)

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Okay Empire team, here is what has happened so far:

STank tries to generate 3 Steam, suffers a mishap.  It loses 1 Steam.

The Demis charge the Fangs.

The Knight 2 completes a successful charge against the Blaster.

The Captasus and Demis both rally.

Knight1 & Knight4 both make Leadership tests to march.

Knight1 loses a Knight to DT going over the wall.  They make a Panic test.  3 models remain in that unit.

Here is what Sammay is thinking for the rest of the movement:

Instead of charging the Kitty and Gnobs, he is thinking about Steam Gunning the Gnobs from the STank and using magic on the Kitty. 

I assume this is to prevent the STank from getting closer to the Guts and having to turn to face them.  That way, if the Guts charge the STank, they are leaving their flank open to 2 Knight units.

Comments for Sammay?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

The Demis in front of the slope look ill positioned to charge anything next turn unless the MF kill most DG's.

IG 1 could as well charge the DG's over in the SE. Make sure they hit us in the front.

How many Gnoblars are there, would they be likely steadfast? I don't think so...they would run right past the tank and further block in the Gutstar, and if you want could still be steamgunned there.

I'm not sure the IG's are worried about two Knight units. In fact, letting the STank rumble forward could protect the SE Demis. They and the NE ones could then be positioned to hit the flanks of the Guts. Could that be enough?

[Cursain]

Shouldn't the demi gryphs be centered on the fangs instead of in the middle so all get to attack?  Once a charge is completed I thought you had to get as many models in base contact as possible with the opposing unit.  Last paragraph pg 20.

The only way the charged demis wouldn't be in full contact is if there was another unit already in combat with the fangs.

Also compare pg 20 with pg 23 with multiple charges.  From how I understand both of those, the demis should be in the middle of the fangs and getting all their attacks.

[sammay23]

Shouldn't the demi gryphs be centered on the fangs instead of in the middle so all get to attack?  Once a charge is completed I thought you had to get as many models in base contact as possible with the opposing unit.  Last paragraph pg 20.

The only way the charged demis wouldn't be in full contact is if there was another unit already in combat with the fangs.

Nah, when you charge you have to attempt to maximize contact, but in this case, it's impossible because the Demis cannot wheel enough to get all three in contact.

That's my understanding.

The Demis in front of the slope look ill positioned to charge anything next turn unless the MF kill most DG's.

I think they should be able to make the charge into the MFs. However, if we can get off a Harmonic Convergence, the math says we shouldn't need to worry about that, as they're likely to be running. I can't see the images, since work blocks them, but I believe they were capable of making that charge...

IG 1 could as well charge the DG's over in the SE. Make sure they hit us in the front.

Yep. That's okay. If they do, we'll flee and leave the IG flank exposed to the STank. I'd suspect the'd more likely charge the Captasus, which would be more problematic.

How many Gnoblars are there, would they be likely steadfast? I don't think so...they would run right past the tank and further block in the Gutstar, and if you want could still be steamgunned there.

My thinking here is that I'd rather not expose any more knights to DT tests than I have to. The Steam Gun has a very good chance of forcing a panic, which they have a good chance of failing.

I'm not sure the IG's are worried about two Knight units. In fact, letting the STank rumble forward could protect the SE Demis. They and the NE ones could then be positioned to hit the flanks of the Guts. Could that be enough?

Agreed. Two knight units aren't going to pack enough punch to really hurt the Guts too much. I want to tempt them to head south. As long as we can keep the Iron Blasters tied up, we have a good shot at winning a ranged battle. A chain lightning or shot from the Tank could knock a few more Guts down, making them much easier prey for later.

Still have three turns left. Lots of time to set up our multi charges.

Main focus this round is on buffing the DGs, not losing one, and winning combat by 4 or more. One Harmonic Convergence will accomplish this.

And the Ogres have no scroll.

Let's hope for at least six dice in the magic phase.

[sammay23]

A little back-of-the-envelope math. This is how I typically try to estimate combat outcomes. I'll round to the nearest whole number to keep myself sane. So, in this case, I tell myself:

2 DGs on 2 MFs.

6DG attacks, hit 4 times, wound 2-3 times with 1 being saved = 1-2 wounds.
2 ICK atttacks, hit 2 times, wound 2 times with 0 saved = 2 wounds

8MF attacks, hit 4 times, wound 2-3 times with 1-2 saved = 1 wound.
6Ogre attakcs, hit 3 times, wound 1-2 times with, really, both saved = 0 wounds.

I see the DGs up by 2-3 wounds with a charge.

2 DGs with Harmonic Convergence on 2 MFs.

6DG attacks, hit 5 times, wound 4 times with 1 being saved = 3 wounds.
2 ICK atttacks, hit 2 times, wound 2 times with 0 saved = 2 wounds

8MF attacks, hit 4 times, wound 2-3 times with 3 saved = 0 wounds.
6Ogre attakcs, hit 3 times, wound 1-2 times with, really, both saved = 0 wounds.

up by 5 wounds, plus a charge

2 DGs on 2 MFs with Curse of Mindnight Winds.

6DG attacks, hit 4 times, wound 2-3 times with 1 being saved = 1-2 wounds.
2 ICK atttacks, hit 2 times, wound 2 times with 0 saved = 2 wounds

8MF attacks, hit 3 times, wound 1-2 times with 1-2 saved = 0 wounds.
6Ogre attakcs, hit 2 times, wound 1 time with 1 saved = 0 wounds.

up by3-4 wounds, plus a charge

Again, I know this isn't totally accurate, but this is the quick math I'll do when playing a game, to consider what needs to happen in order to, on average, get the outcome I want.

In this case, we really really NEED to win by 5+ in order to reliably break the MFs.

This, then, suggests that it would be worth risking an IF to get Harmonic Convergence up on the DGs.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I'm not sure the IG's are worried about two Knight units. In fact, letting the STank rumble forward could protect the SE Demis. They and the NE ones could then be positioned to hit the flanks of the Guts. Could that be enough?

My point wasn't that the Knights are all that scary-  but it changes the calculations for Ogres deciding to charge the STank.

If they didn't kill it outright, having multiple units charge the Guts in the flank is significantly different than keeping their front arc facing potential chargers and forcing the chargers to try and squeeze in next to the STank- which ultimately would be ineffective.

The reason the Ogres charged the first STank was because they thought they had some time to finish it off before getting charged in compromising ways.

With Sammay not moving the STank, I don't think they are going to seriously consider charging it.

The Demis in front of the slope look ill positioned to charge anything next turn unless the MF kill most DG's.

I think they should be able to make the charge into the MFs. However, if we can get off a Harmonic Convergence, the math says we shouldn't need to worry about that, as they're likely to be running. I can't see the images, since work blocks them, but I believe they were capable of making that charge...

I tweaked their facing slightly to more north.  Just like with the Fangs, you want them to be able to move forward in a straight line and not have to start their wheel until they barely clear the Demi asses.  As LSP points out, their original facing would force them to pivot slightly which would prevent a future wheel.

Empire T3 Magic Phase:

Empire gets a 4&3 for Winds.  1 Empire channel.

8PD versus 4DD.

What do you want to cast?

[Cursain]

Shouldn't the demi gryphs be centered on the fangs instead of in the middle so all get to attack?  Once a charge is completed I thought you had to get as many models in base contact as possible with the opposing unit.  Last paragraph pg 20.

The only way the charged demis wouldn't be in full contact is if there was another unit already in combat with the fangs.

Nah, when you charge you have to attempt to maximize contact, but in this case, it's impossible because the Demis cannot wheel enough to get all three in contact.

That's my understanding.

That doesn't make much sense though.  Say two horde units clipped the last man of each unit and weren't engaged with any other units....that means only six models can fight out of thirty possible in each unit for rounds and rounds of combat?

[sammay23]

Six dice Harmonic Convergence on the DGs fighting the MFs.

Go big or go home.

[zifnab0]

I have been following this, so if you'll take a suggestion: don't throw 6 dice at Convergence.

You have 8 dice to his 4.  If you start with a 3-dice spell you give him a difficult decision.  Spend all 4 dice to dispel (giving him +1 dice advantage) or let it go and face 5 dice against his 4.

Assuming average rolls, you have an excellent chance to get two spells off.

I would suggest 3 dice at Iceshard Blizzard on the Mournfang.  That is something he is going to want to prevent from going off.  If he dispels it, use 3 dice for Convergence and 2 dice for Curse on the Mournfang.

If he lets the spell go, throw all 5 dice at Convergence.

[sammay23]

Hang on HHG, let us have this conversation.

So, I'm totally sympathetic to this. I thought long and hard about it.

I'm worried that if we try to maximize our phase, we may run afoul of the terrible luck we've had thus far.

The biggest problem is that Curse has a casting cost of 10 (and we don't have Blizzard anymore). Even on 3 dice, with our level 3, there is a risk of failing to cast. Also, his level 4 gives him a boost to opposing us.

I agree that optimally we'd be going for two spells this phase. I'm just a bit shaken by the low-odds

[Holy Hand Grenade]

My thought is-

Throw 5 dice at Harmonic C first.  Either you get IF and have the spell you want go off....or he has to throw all 4 DD at it and may likely fail.

Then, you don't have to worry about failing on the 3 dice Curse.

If you are really lucky, you get both off.

[sammay23]

My counter is that harmonic is MUCH better than Curse for this combat. We do more wounds and take the same casualties back, on average (and roughly). This is probably the most important combat of the game. We break the MFs here, they lose their standard and may get run down.

5 dice with a lvl 3 risks being dispelled by a good roll from a lvl 4. I'd rather take the IF and guarantee getting the spell through. And I'm not willing to risk 2-3 dice at Curse first.

Nope. I'm convinced. We are going to throw six. I may be wrong on this one, but HC is more potent for us in this case than Curse is. I want that spell punched through. The math say we should win combat by 4+, which is what we need.

Just to add... IF we had Iceshard still, I'd throw 3 at it first. The lower casting cost and increased effectiveness would make it a good 3-dice spell.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Well-  you got what you wanted Sammay.

You rolled 3 sixes on six dice.  IF.

On the resulting miscast, you rolled really bad-  and your Wizard got sucked into the abyss.  He is gone.

The Knights and Demis near the destroyed Wizard both make their Panic tests in seeing him ripped to shreds.


Empire T3 Shooting Phase:

Some more bad luck for you.

The STank turned its Steam Gun on the Gnobs but only managed to get 2 wounds.  They didn't even have to take a Panic test.  The Engie tries to follow up but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

Going to a movie-  will post the combat when I get back tonight!  Stay tuned!

 
HHG

[sammay23]

Well, I knew it was a risk. Fair enough. Got a little more than I bargained for, but the result is what I wanted.

Now... let's see about the payoff...

After your movie, of course. Enjoy

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Empire T3 Combat Phase:

In the Capt versus Blaster battle-  the Blaster finally gets an unsaved wound and takes none in return.  Capt passes his Break test. 

In the Knights versus Blaster battle, the Knights score two unsaved wounds and take none in return.  The Blaster fails it Break test and fails the reroll.  It runs away 10 inches off the board and the Knight pursue it going forward 7 inches.

With the Demis and Fangs….

The 2 Demis, boosted up on HC, open a can o whoopass and get 5 unsaved wounds.  The riders back that up with another unsaved wound.  1 Fang dies, another takes 2 wounds.

The Fangs pop their Breath weapon in desperation, but fail to get through the Knights armor with 6 hits.

The Fangs get score 3 wounds on the Demis and on the first Armour Save roll they fail all 3.  Two are 1s however, and they make the rerolls.  Demis only take 1 wound.  The Riders have no effect.

Combat Res:

Ogres-  +1 wound, +1 Std

Empire-  +5 wounds, +1 Charge, +1 Std

Ogres lose by 5.  The Mournfangs fail the first Break test and fail the second…  The Guts pass their Panic test for a unit Breaking within 6 inches.

The Fangs flee a crazy 12 inches away!  But, unfortunately for them, the Demis get 12 inches on the Pursue roll and catch them!  Mournfangs destroyed.

The Demis crash into the Guts.

Here is how it looks at the end:

That was a major blow to the Ogres. 

Things can change so quickly in this game…the Mournfangs go from a successful combat in finishing off the STank to a wise overrun into some Demis… and can’t make a simple 5 inches on it (I was having flashbacks of my failed Outrider charge in the last TEG where I only need 4 inches).  Then the Demis, buffed by the last spell the Empire Wizard will ever cast, save the day by hacking them down to the very last Fang.

The best thing going for the Ogres right now is having the only magic user on the board, but I don't know if that is going to be enough.

 
HHG

[sammay23]

It's definitely been a more erratic game than most, but that's the nice thing about having a lot of units.. you can hold on until the dice even out or go your way.

Losing the wizard was well worth the result.

As I see it, the only thing standing between Empire and a massacre is an IF Trollguts next phase. Demigryphs on Harmonic Convergence are just plain deadly and durable - a combination that makes for some very unbalanced combat results.

But, let us see what happens.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Wow, massive swings and roundabouts. Fun stuff. Also, good reasoning above on the moves and counter-moves.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Gnobs and Kitty charge the Knight4 successfully.

The other Kitty slides up to block the Demis.

Ogre T4 Magic Phase:

For Winds, Ogres get a 4&2 and 1 channel.

7PD to 4DD

Ogres working their first spell.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

They start with a 2 dice Bullgorger on the Guts.

Dispel response?

[sammay23]

Yeah... that's what I was afraid of. What's their casting value for Bullgorger? Very unlikely we'll stop Trollguts this round...


Oh, and in the future, just check in about holds and flees, even if they seem obvious. I like to flee a lot

[sammay23]

HHG is on his mobile atm.

 They rolled 8 + 4 = 12

So, to dispel, we'd really need to throw all 4 dice. We'd have almost a 75% chance of dispelling.

If we don't dispel, they'll have S7, which will hurt.

If we do dispel, they'll have five dice to cast stubborn and regen. I think we cannot stop them from casting regen, so...

I still think we can win combat, even if they get regen off. Let's keep them from being stubborn.

HHG, we'll save our dice and let it through.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

***Note-  I forgot to remove the Demigryph Standard Bearer when the unit fled on to the Scree slope.  Only 1 Demi remains in that unit.

Finishing Ogre T4 Magic Phase:

The Empire decides to let Bullgorger go.

Next, the SM belches out a 4 dice Trollguts on the Guts but only gets 8+4+1=13.

The Empire tosses all 4 DD on it and gets 14.  Dispelled.

The SM uses the final die on Spinemwarrow on the Guts and gets 6+4=10.  Goes off.


Empire T3 Combat Phase:

In the Capt versus Blaster battle-  the Capt passes his Fear test (I have been forgetting to mention the Fear tests in these multiple Capt versus Blaster battles, but never fear, I have been taking them  All in all, the various Captains have only failed twice).  Capt finally manages to wound the Blaster and take none in return.  Blaster makes the Break test.

In the west, the Knight make their Fear test.  But they must have been rattled with the Sabrekitty on their flank because they only manage to kill 1 Gnob.  The Gnobs, however, go crazy and somehow manage to kill 2 Knights.  The Kitty whiffs, but it doesn’t matter.  The Knights fail their Break test and run away run away 6 inches.  The Kitty catches them by racing forward 12 inches.   Knight 4 is destroyed.  The Gnob try to hold but fail and also move forward 5 inches.  The nearby Demis make their Panic test. 

With the Demis and Guts….  The Demis have Harmonic Convergeance.  The Guts have Bullgorger (+1 Str) and Spinemarrow (Stubborn)

To start, 2 Demis whack on the back Irongut.  They get a total of 4 unsaved wounds.  1 Gut dies and another one has 1 wound remaining due to wounds inflicted on the unit prior.  The other Demi whacks on the Bruiser but his Ward save protects him.

At I3, the 2 Riders attack the SM (because the back row Gut is now gone).  One Rider manages to get a 6 to hit and a 5 to wound.  The SM takes a wound.  He has 3 remaining because he took a wound earlier due to a miscast.  The other Demi Rider has no effect on the BSB Bruiser.

The SM, boosted in Str, overcompensates for the extra umphf.  He rolls triple ones for his 3 wound rolls.

The Bruiser, on the other hand, makes the 3 wound rolls he nets, but the Demis roll 5, 6, 6 on their Armour Saves.

Combat Res:

Ogres-  +1 Std, +1BSB, +1 rank

Empire-  +5 wounds, +1 Charge, +1 Std, +1 Flank

Ogres lose by 5.  They are not only Steadfast but Stubborn.  They easily make their Break test. 

Waiting on George’s input to see if he wants to combat reform them to face the Demis.


Here is how it looks at the end, pending George’s decision:

You can start planning your movement Sammay-  but I am not positive which way George will want to go on the reform so we are waiting on that.

 
HHG

[sammay23]

Well, if we were playing a tourney, I'd clean up the ironblaster and avoid for the next two OK turns. We'd net a nice 500 point victory - 300 if we lose the DGs fighting the IG block.

But we may as well go for the massacre for the fun of it. Sound good to those still watching? Or would it be more helpful to see the use of avoidance?

[Cursain]

Bring out the mop and broom sammay.  I want to see you clean this house.

-Cursain

[sammay23]

Your wish is my command.

And... I have a new sig