Topic: Another damn halberdier fix

[scarletsquig]

Okay, now that the skaven book has brought back 1/2 points to warhammer army books, I suggest the following:

Halberdiers: 5 points.

 - May take a shield for 1/2 point each.
 - May take heavy armour for 1/2 point each.

Job done. No messing around with fancy special rules, competitive with swordsmen.

5 1/2 point halberdier - slightly worse than a swordsman in combat due to -1 WS.. but also costs 1/2 point less.

6 point halberdier - still has - 1 WS compared to the swordsman, but also has +1 armour save to compensate.

And of course, they can always choose to use halberds in the situations where it's best to.

As for the whole "the models don't have heavy armour on them" argument... I think any chance of the models being remotely close to their stats went right out of the window after we got pistoliers in full plate and greatswords in heavy armour.

Thoughts? I realise that the naked 5-point halberdier still isn't much good, but that's a tougher nut to crack.

[Derek Contyre]

If they bring in half points it will be a complicated mess for new player. Also where does it say in the skaven rumours about half points. . . ?

[scarletsquig]

Confirmed over on warseer about the skaven, clanrats have 1/2 point shields.

Good move, in my opinion.. half points make things easier to balance properly at the low end.

As for the half points thing confusing new players I was adding them and multiplying them back in 5th edition as an 11 year-old, it shouldn't be too hard for newbies to figure out, especially with technology these days... you can not only have an impressive digital watch, but you can also use it as a calculator too!

[Derek Contyre]

Lol once again i fail to comprehend the fact that people will be buying the soldiers in bulk and that thirty clanrats for so many points with shields for 15pts. . . sounds like a good idea to me too.

[Phydox]

Ive been away a while but some debates never disappear.

I don't think heavy armor fits the theme of this army.  We like our troops cheap, so we can choke our enemy with our dead.  When you run out of men, just empty the prisons again.

I've always said the best fix for the halBADier is make them the opposite of spears.  They attack in 2 ranks on a charge. (so they may actually be tempting as a detachment).

[Derek Contyre]

yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

If the empire want us to take halberdiers they need to do something about their rules, i like them and take them for a fun game but they aren't competitive at all.

[Inarticulate]

Taking Halberdiers and just using them as heavy armour hand weapon infantry just defeats the objective of taking Halberdiers.

I say give them heavy armour for 1 pt, nothing else. That way they have armour equal to Swordsmen in combat with the added boost of the Halberd.

And to equal them out with Spearmen, get rid of Spearmen and add pikemen with light armour and an updated rule for pikes.

I think the only reason Swords have the +1 Ws and I is because they couldn't compete with the spearmen and halbs in earlier editions.

[Phydox]

yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

Well, you could keep the spearmen slightly more armored by giving them a shield.  Drop the shield from halberds, and keep them cheap (pointswise). So, you would have a higher ac defensive block, and a detachment that hits hard on a charge. 

[The Dice-Shaman]

I like the idea of heavy armor for them.  I really think that they should represent the halberd historically and simply...

When charging fight in one rank at STR 4, and when receiving a charge fight in two ranks as spears.

Speaking of history: Our army is what I believe to be Victorian Era- Renaissance and therefore there would be no spearmen, rather pikemen. Pike and Shot ring a bell? However, greatswords are still made of blueberry poo... very expensive and stubbon blueberry poo.

Don't think it can get much simpler than that but then GW couldn't make their tidy bundles selling spearmen and greatsword models now could they.....

[Derek Contyre]

Victorian era??? I dont think so.
Think Henry V. Thats about the type. And staple armies from the holy roman empire weren't simply pike and shot. That was the province of the landscnekts

[der Hurenwiebel]

Actually a bit after hank cinc more hank wheat (seriously henry 5,henry 8) 

What the empire is, is essentially a 1480-1560 era army with leonardo da vinci inspired steam punk accessories set in a magical version of the germanies (yes plural) of the Holy Roman Empire.  Which, ironically in real life was neither holy, roman nor an empire.  Bit of a puzzler that one actually. 

Maximillian I was a contemporary of Henry the 8th and Francis the 2nd of france, if you are looking for more source material for what a real world army of the empire might look like.


This is not an army (in real life) which really is supposed to actually even have pistoliers or repeater handguns, while the concepts were invented they were not yet militarily available.  Kind of like what we today would call "future weapons".  Yet by that same token, (in our fantasy world) after a thousand years of gunpowder one would think there'd be a bit of advancement.   

I think this aspect of the time period is the attraction for a fantasy game.  The army is right on the cusp of late medieval and an early modern era army.  Incedentally you are right in one thing this generation did give birth to the pike and shot concept.  While it was born here it was by no means as effeciently deployed as it was in each of the next 5 generations of soldiers.

[Inarticulate]

Huren speaks the truth.

And a bit of a fluffy debate: I agree with Huren about the Empire = Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was a like a confederation of most of the German States, each state was like country in its own right, just as all the provinces have the population and size of regular countries. There is no central army, each province has armies. I would imagine the Emperor does not hold much power outside Reikland.

[Derek Contyre]

No he does not, otherwise he would of shut down the solland effort before it became too much of a concieved "threat" lol

I agree with huren also, the holy roman empire was an empire in name only.

[The Dice-Shaman]

Masterfully written Horen!  I still can't help but time shift when putting gunpowder in the same jar as swords and such.  But i'll agree that as Halberds are our "mainstay" unit our time period is 'late' HREmpire, especially because our Lore is based on Germanic and Prussian areas.

Point is:   Halberds hurt on the charge, and receive like spears in RLife.

STR 4 on charge, 2 Ranks on receive 

[Inarticulate]

Well no, we're late-mid HRE. It was going well into the 18th century.

[der Hurenwiebel]

yeah
I think the distinction you are looking for is late medieval/ early modern. 

for that matter concerning army themes why not do a french, english or even spanish fantasy empire army from this era. could be a fun modelling project.

 

[cisse]

yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

Simple, let Empire spears fight in 3 ranks. It's in the fluff, just call them "half-pikes" and be done with it.

Then you have halberds striking in two ranks at S4, but with no shield, spears with shield in three ranks, and swords just as they are now. All are about equal, all fit a different role in the army.

[Inarticulate]

I don't understand why you can't use spear and shield in combat. Hoplite fashion.

[Derek Contyre]

You can, 5+ saves is the best spearmen save in combat.

Spears are NOT two handed weapons and therefore get shield saves.

Night gobbo's with six plus saves. . . huzzah

[Phydox]

yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

Simple, let Empire spears fight in 3 ranks. It's in the fluff, just call them "half-pikes" and be done with it.

Then you have halberds striking in two ranks at S4, but with no shield, spears with shield in three ranks, and swords just as they are now. All are about equal, all fit a different role in the army.

Thumbs up cisse.  I agree basically.  The Empire is suppose to be about Martial Tradition.  That's why we get detachments, cause supposedly we practice killing a lot, while elves paint and write poetry most of the time.

Give the weapons that the empire infantry uses different roles.  Spears have some defensive hedgehog effect, and halberds have an offensive effect.

[Inarticulate]

You can, 5+ saves is the best spearmen save in combat.

Spears are NOT two handed weapons and therefore get shield saves.

Night gobbo's with six plus saves. . . huzzah

What?! Oh goddamnit.

[t12161991]

Wow. I never put the 5+ save and two handed bit together before...

[HoS]

Has this thread ever died? It's like some kind of shitty poltergeist that only knows one prank.

Every suggestion here has been made before, all the discussion here has been had. All the fluff is old news; we know how to fix it, but GW will not. End of story.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Actually fluffwise the Empire doesn't seem to have advanced much.

Compared to our real world Europe where 1000 years took us from knights with lances to thermonuclear bombs, the Empire is frozen in time. We're supposed to be the innovative peoples, where's our thermonuclear device?

Where's our magically enhanced supersoldiers in steam-powered armour?

[Obi]

Wow. I never put the 5+ save and two handed bit together before...

LOLOLOL AND THATS THE FORUM GENIUS SPEAKING LOLOLOLOL ONEONEELEVENTYONE

Sorry, couldn't resist

yeah but if they fight in two ranks who will ever take spearmen again?

Simple, let Empire spears fight in 3 ranks. It's in the fluff, just call them "half-pikes" and be done with it.

Then you have halberds striking in two ranks at S4, but with no shield, spears with shield in three ranks, and swords just as they are now. All are about equal, all fit a different role in the army.

Best idea so far. It's even a little bit better than the most simple idea, which is making them S4 AP.

Yeah, that one hasn't been mentioned in this thread, and it has to be in any serious halberd fix discussion thread. You know it.