The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild > The Old World Cometh Again !!!
The issue of infantry and diving into the numbers
KPhan1212:
It's no secret that Infantry is in a terrible place in TOW. I see a lot of people (including myself) offering houserules as solutions but I don't think I've seen anyone do a deep dive into the numbers.
Ideally, a block of infantry should have a good chance of winning combat or stalemating against a unit of cavalry of equal or lesser points. And its a question of how much Combat Res they can output. With that in mind, I created a unit of State Troopers and Empire Knights with as close to points value as possible and calculated their average Combat Res.
For the State Troops, I used 165 pts to make a unit of 25 models with Halberds/Spears and Full Command arranged in a 5x5 block.
For the Empire Knights, I used 166pts to make a unit of 7 models with a Preceptor and Standard Bearer arranged in a line.
The assumptions that I'm making are:
* Empire Knights will always get their charge.
* The first rank of State Troops are always killed, leaving behind the champion (and supporting rank for spears).
* State Troops lose combat, but always roll well enough to Give Ground.
* Average Kills = (Number of Attacks)(To Hit)(To Wound)(Armor Save)
25 State Troops (5x5) Combat Res
* Close Order: +1
* Standard Bearer: +1
* Rank Bonus: +2 (Negated by First Charge)
* Kills made by Champion w/ Halberd: 0-2 (avg 0.33)
* Kills made by Fighting Rank w/ Halberd: 0-6 (avg 1)
* Kills made by Champion plus Supporting Attacks w/ Spear: 0-7 (avg 0.58)
* Kills made by Fighting Rank plus Supporting Attacks w/ Spear:0-11 (avg 0.96)
7 Empire Knights (7x1) Combat Res
* Close Order: +1
* Standard Bearer: +1
* Kills made by Knights w/ Lance: 0-8 (avg 4.44)
* Kills made by Knights w/ Hand Weapons: 0-8 (avg 2.22)
* Kills made by Warhorses: 0-8 (avg 1.45)
Results
Average Combat Res of Halberdiers is:
* 4.33 after getting charged or 2.33 (if First Charge removes Rank Bonus)
* 5 after giving ground and fighting on the next combat phase
Average Combat Res of Spearmen is:
* 4.58 after getting charged or 2.58 (if First Charge removes Rank Bonus)
* 4.96 after giving ground and fighting on the next combat phase
Average Combat Res of Empire Knights is:
* 7.89 on the turn that it charged
* 5.67 after State Troops give ground and they're fighting with hand weapons
Conclusion
So Empire Knights on the charge against an equal points value of State Troops will on average win combat by 3-6 points and even if those state troops roll really well on the Break Test and Give Ground, will probably still lose combat on the next turn.
I think the cause of the issue is how Fighting Ranks work in TOW. In previous editions, both the Static CR and the Killing CR were limited in some way. Static CR was arbitrarily limited (with a cap to rank bonus, etc) while Killing CR was limited by how many models were in base to base contact. Now in TOW the entire Fighting Rank can take part in combat, effectively unshackling the Killing CR that a unit can generate. You can infinitely increase a units Killing CR by adding and more points into it and increasing the width of the formation, but you can't do the something comparable with Static CR.
With all that in mind, what do you guys think would be a good solution to the issue with infantry? Personally I think re-introducing the base to base requirement for models in a unit to fight and requiring units to maximize contact after a charge. Also adding back the outnumber bonus to combat res in order to nudge infantry into being competitive against cavalry units of the same "tier" and points cost, but not going so far as to make the elite cavalry units useless. My logic behind my conclusion is that a heavy cavalry unit charging an equivalent points of infantry unit should have the same CR or slightly favoring the heavy cavalry by 1 and that increasing to a 3 if they still have first charge. Then when the infantry rolls the break test and give ground, suddenly they have the higher CR output due to the cavalry losing momentum from their intial charge.
Edwin von Dufflecoat:
Why on earth are there ten halberdiers at the back doing nothing? Just waiting to die? How could such a strategy ever win?
Split that same halberdier unit into 3. 13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank
The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.
Static cr wise the halberdiers just went from cr4 to cr6 before any dice are rolled. And instead of 6 attacks at best, you've got 20.
Now on the charge the donkey wallopers might still have the edge...but I reckon those odds are a darn sight closer!
Skyros:
--- Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on October 11, 2024, 01:39:16 PM ---Split that same halberdier unit into 3. 13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank
--- End quote ---
Do you think this is an actual useful unit that you see in tournament lists? Or is this just some very strange formation you've concocted just to maximize their chances in an arbitrary hypothetical face off?
And isn't this really just line hammer with extra steps? I think the odds get even better for the halberdiers if they are all in just one huge long line throwing all their attacks in every single fight. 25 halberd attacks into a unit of knights causes not inconsiderable damage.
Maybe linehammer was the developers attempt at making infantry relevant?
--- Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on October 11, 2024, 01:39:16 PM ---The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.
--- End quote ---
Why would the knights charge the parent instead of charging the detachments?
Edwin von Dufflecoat:
--- Quote from: Skyros on October 11, 2024, 01:54:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on October 11, 2024, 01:39:16 PM ---Split that same halberdier unit into 3. 13, with a frontage of 7, and 2 x6 detachments in one rank
--- End quote ---
Do you think this is an actual useful unit that you see in tournament lists? Or is this just some very strange formation you've concocted just to maximize their chances in an arbitrary hypothetical face off?
--- Quote from: Edwin von Dufflecoat on October 11, 2024, 01:39:16 PM ---The knights charge the parent unit, the two detachments counter charge into their flank.
--- End quote ---
Why would the knights charge the parent instead of charging the detachments?
--- End quote ---
For starters both units in the OPs post are hypothetical units for a hypothetical match up. And secondly, yes I have used that formation in a tournament.
I came 2nd overall. ( but it was only a little tourney :wink: ) in fact in one of the games it went up against a traditional empire "big block" anvil unit as per the OP. Guess which won?
Detachments get ignored by none empire players for being too small to care about. And secondly if they stand back an inch they can't be charged without coming into contact with the parent unit anyway.
You don't want the parent unit frontage too long or the detachments can't reach of course.
Skyros:
Both the OP's formations are the typical ones that you see every day, a block of infantry, a line of knights.
Empire detachments are most certainly not ignored by any player who has any idea what they are doing. They are easy points and great ways to cause panic. A single magic missile or even a couple shots from an otherwise pointless BS based shooting unit are enough to see them off. My experience has been they are just below light cavalry in terms of drawing fire.
The bottom line is that empire detachments are basically inferior to just doing linehammer, as the detachments are much more susceptible to panic and not being able to get all their attacks in due to terrain or the wrong part of the unit being charged, etc.
40 halberdiers in a line getting charged in the front get all their attacks all the time, even if half the unit is behind another, or terrain, and can't do a charge this turn.. But 24 halberdiers in a 3x8, with two detachments in a 1x8 on either side, can easily find themselves obstructed by terrain or other units and be unable to concentrate their forces with the multiple charges needing to connect
It's ironic, but detachments dilute your forces instead of concentrating them.
"And secondly if they stand back an inch they can't be charged without coming into contact with the parent unit anyway."
That doesn't seem to be true
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