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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => Empire 8th Army Book => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Lords Heroes and Special Characters => Topic started by: Grutch on May 13, 2009, 01:42:50 AM
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Since Graham McNeil started the trend of making one unit of flagellents core if you take an Arch lector, we should continue such trend with the other Lords.
General of the Empire - Make a unit of Greatswords Core
Grand Master - One Unit of Inner Circle Knights count as core.
-Grutch
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Wizard Lord makes a Battle Wizard count as Core?
But seriously, this (what Grutch posted) is what the book should definitely have, except it should be for each of those character choices, one of those units can become core.
So the bigger the battle, the more of these Lord's in the battle, the more of each of those types should become Core.
Does this mean we change the rule for the Warrior Priest though?
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Werent GS core if you had an Elector Count in 6th Ed?
Anyway, great idea imo.
Wizard Lord is a bit trickier, but GS would be a simple option I think
As for Special Characters, I take it this means "Karl Franz" et al, hate them, get rid totally.
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Wizard Lord makes a Battle Wizard count as Core?
Actually, that could work.
A single level 1 Wizard to count as a Core choice, not going towards the minimum choices, or whatever. No magic items.
:-D
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Call the 'general' an Elector Count again. It's just better.
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Call the 'general' an Elector Count again. It's just better.
nah
GotE is way better, many more generals than there are Elector counts, and not all EC will go out to fight.
Unless ECs would get different upgrades and stats, then you could have both
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Elector Count sounds better in the army list. General is too generic.
There are only two Arch Lectors in The Empire, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a character choice that uses that name. It's not necessary to take the name literally.
Whoever it was that wrote the sixth edition book had more idea of what he was doing than the seventh edition guy.
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See, I like my GotE, but then again it would be a rare, rare day I took an Arch Lector anyway so that naming argument doesnt work on me lol
Also, I hate special named characters too, so definately not ;)
Hang on, if there are two named AL's and one of them is a special characer in the army list, doesnt that make the one in the core army lists the other one? :p
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Neither Arch Lector is a special character.
It doesn't matter what you call your general, or whether or not he's an actual Elector Count. But it's clear that 'Elector Count' is a more interesting title for the army list, and I can only assume it was changed because some people are excessively literal.
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For that reason, I expect the Arch Lector's name to be changed. I really do like Random Religious Dude.
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Some people are excessively literal.
Yes...me ;)
Random Religious Dude, I like it
Either way the War altar needs to be renamed Popemobile.
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And be either 125 or 150 points.
But I like Grutch's idea.
I still think a WP would lead to a unit of flaggies as core. But we forgot one thing:
an engineer will make one war machine (no stank!) core.
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Master egineer - makes one cannon or mortar (not stank) core.
Also - battery commander. Multiple cannon OR mortar may be grouped into one battery, in which case all guns may make two range guesses and use the most accurate one when it is measured. (before the artillery dice roll)
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I rather like Grutch's idea too, since it would allow the creation of themed Empire armies, which seems like a good idea in my book.
As for the debate on the Elector Count versus the General of the Empire, I personally find the latter rather bland, but in order to appease both camps, why not make the Elector Count some sort of upgrade for the General of the Empire Entry, so that players can choose which one they want?
The Elector Count could have access to more exotic magic items, and could have an additional point of WS relative to the General, for example, but I'm sure such an entry could be worked out.
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I really like the idea of the Elector Count being an upgrade for the GotE
Increase in cost for
Ld - 10
+100 for Runefang
50 points on Magic Items (i.e. 50 of his magic points are swapped for the runefang option)
If he is with a unit, unit becomes stubborn (personal life guard)
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I really like the idea of the Elector Count being an upgrade for the GotE
Increase in cost for
Ld - 10
+100 for Runefang
50 points on Magic Items (i.e. 50 of his magic points are swapped for the runefang option)
If he is with a unit, unit becomes stubborn (personal life guard)
This is definitely the sort of idea I had in mind, and I can't see any of that being excessive on the face of it, although I don't play that many games of Fantasy any more, so I may have missed some balance issues.
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Well, Ld 10 is really high. Other than that, I think it's a great idea. But how many points should that cost? 50?
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I really like the idea of the Elector Count being an upgrade for the GotE
Increase in cost for
Ld - 10
+100 for Runefang
50 points on Magic Items (i.e. 50 of his magic points are swapped for the runefang option)
If he is with a unit, unit becomes stubborn (personal life guard)
Or you could make a Generic Elector Count Lord who already comes with a Runefang + 50 points of Magic Items. I'm not sure I like the stubborn idea for troops. If I could have stubborn swordsmen, I'd never ever consider greatswords (in their current form).
I thought about adding a core War Machine for an Engineer General and I felt it was too over the top, and personally I can't see myself fielding more than 4 War Machines on a table before it gets too lopsided. That and I don't feel an Engineer is a worthy battle commander and would rather him stay in the support hero role with a BS5 and some adjustments to his special rules. When you see my writeup on the Engineer, you will understand why I feel he shouldn't grant a warmachine core choice to the army.
-Grutch
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Normal troops = stubborn, stubborn troops (ie GS) = Unbreakable? Nah, too much
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Wizard lord allows you to take a unit of
Tzeentchian Warriors Acolytes (to be invented again) for free ?
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GoTE - 50 points can be upgraded to an Elector Count- Elector Counts still give the 50pt banner but if in a unit of Infantry (non-FC) will make them stubborn, if in Great Swords will make them unbreakable.
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General of the Empire - Make a unit of Greatswords Core
Grand Master - One Unit of Inner Circle Knights count as core.
Also I would say reduce the price of the Griffon for the General down to 100 points (was 200).
For the Grand Master in addition to taking a unit of IC Knights as Core I would also suggest he gets Killing Blow.
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Call the 'general' an Elector Count again. It's just better.
nah
GotE is way better, many more generals than there are Elector counts, and not all EC will go out to fight.
Unless ECs would get different upgrades and stats, then you could have both
Aesthetically, I think we should change the name of the General to the Marshal or something akin to that. As is, we could have the unusual situation of having a General of the Empire who is not actually the general of the army. With a change to Marshal, we remove that ambiguity.
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Marshall is good.
Lord Marshal of Reikland, Lord Marshal of Osterland, Constable of Middenland
Constable also works for me :)
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Why would we change the name of GoTE? He's a random character he can have any title you want him too.
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Why would we change the name of GoTE? He's a random character he can have any title you want him too.
Indeed; let's not confuse the unit names and the fluff. I never once believed that if you took an Arch Lector you were taking one of the ONLY TWO in the Empire, and even when we had Elector Counts I had no issues fielding one that, fluffwise, I thought of as little more than a glorified general.
Of course, I've said before the Empire army needs minor tweaks at best, maybe naming conventions are part of that.
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I never once believed that if you took an Arch Lector you were taking one of the ONLY TWO in the Empire, and even when we had Elector C
You should email that Wirewolf or Direwolf gaming club and tell them they're tools for saying their can BE ONLY ONE war altar. In an edition that has no unit/item caps the idea that a cap on the War altar was a good idea is bogus*.
* and 100 points for it is fine. Only people to complain that Empire are OP are daemon and vc players who loose the right to any opinion anyway.
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Wizard lord allows you to take a unit of Tzeentchian Warriors Acolytes (to be invented again) for free ?
Acolytes give +1 PD?
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yeah if you sacrifice them to the dark gods....upps wrong forum.
General upgrade to elector count --> pro and great idea grant him the runefang for +50 Points with his three Ws 5 Attacks he still doesn´t cut the big slack.
Ld 9 is fine but perhaps he should make his unit immune to panic or even psychology.
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General can be upgraded to Elector Count +100 points for Runefang, can spend 50 points on items and makes a unit of Greatswords Core, also allows them a banner.
Arch Lector - Fine as he is, can make a unit of Flagellants core as now
Grandmaster - Give this guy an extra attack and Killing Blow
Engineers - 2 types, one is a character similar to now, can make cannons and mortars only 2 for 1 special OR can take 1 cannon as core choice, whichever people feel isnt to overpowered. Other type works as an upgrade for any artillery piece +50 points, allows a reroll on the misfire table and BS4 for Hellblaster to actually hit something
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Well the rules on engineers with a missblaster now IMO is that you can place him with the blaster and you get his bs4 but if it explodes he doesn't die as he didn't replace a crewman or use his reroll that turn.
I think maybe General of the empire allows on unit of greatswords to become core and upgrade to elector count 40pts. (this is a nice rounded number :happy:) Elector count can buy a runefang +50 and comes comes equipped wih full plate armour. All weapon and armour options open, mounts stay same pts, for the griffon is good maybe drop it to 175/180
Elector count grants his unit immune to panic and a reroll on panic test within 6inches (was gonna say twelve but his voice aint that good) and one magic banner per army.
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I have often felt that the strength of the Empire lies not so much in the individual troops, but more that they can coordinate well - hence the detachment rules.
Wizard Lord
If the Wizard Lord is your General then all wizards in your army may choose *any* spell instead of only the first.
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Wizard Lord
If the Wizard Lord is your General then all wizards in your army may choose *any* spell instead of only the first.
hey
any spell? that seems a bit overpowered to me. just change all your spells to firewall/pit of shades/cleansing flare/the spirit of the forge ect. ect.
really makes all of your wizards way too powerful in my eyes.
Luther
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Good general is the imperial key to victory. What do you think about giving GotE 100 additional points, just like vampiric powers etc. for his orders/tactics/strategies? Example: general is able to buy buff for units (general gives his unit +d3 to CR; one unit in 6" per turn, if passes Ld test, will be able to turn for free/may reroll panic tests etc...) or more expensive powers that affect whole army and grant serious advantages (+1 to result of game's beginning roll or redeployment of one unit or even extra turn of shooting from one war machine before battle)
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hey
any spell? that seems a bit overpowered to me. just change all your spells to firewall/pit of shades/cleansing flare/the spirit of the forge ect. ect.
really makes all of your wizards way too powerful in my eyes.
Luther
To clarify, I didn't mean that you can choose outside the lore that you chose for the wizard - not sure if you thought I meant that.
I am not sure it would be that over-powered in the grand scheme of things. After all, to get that super-power for your wizards you have to have a general with only Ld 8, and the ease with which spells are shut down these days there will not be that many spells getting through.
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On reflection, I think *any* spell in the same college is not really what I was after.
I think I would change it to: If your Wizard Lord is General, then after determining spells normally all wizards may drop one spell and replace it with any one Remains In Play spell or any one spell that has a non-casualty effect. The new spell must be taken from the same College.
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General of the Empire - any Halberd regiment's unit champion can be upgraded to a Greatsword. As long as the Greatsord unit champion is alive the Halberd regiment has base leadership 8 and is stubborn. Any Greatsword regiment joined by a GotE is immune to psycology.
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I think captians, generals and elector counts should be able to issue orders like the imperial guard can. E.g, they can make a unit shoot with an extra rank, or re-roll failed to wound rolls on large targets, or run and get an extra d6" move.
Captains would only get 1 per turn, generals 2 and electors 3, with different ranges for each, e.g 6" for captains, 9" for generals and 12" for elector counts.
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there are only 2 arch lectors of SIGMAR however there are arch lectors of other gods in the empire
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Indeed, see the warrior priest thread for my thoughts on priests of other cults.
Sorry I might have missed something, when did we decide to halve the points of a Runefang? I mean come on, I know a GotE's stat line isn't very impressive, but thats just a mite presumptuous don't you think?
There shouldn't be one war altar in our list, its the only thing thats seriously broken (although the Steam tank comes close), Direwolf should be praised for their attempts at damage limitation, heaven forbid anyone should field a 3k army with two of those monstrosities in.
The war altar is supposed to be a unique sigmarite artifact so if we do go down the route of priests from different cults only sigmarites should be allowed to take the war altar.
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The discussion right now is that, priced as it is, the Runefang is a laughable option when you consider the amount of points in magical items a general is allowed to take. Now, 1/2 the price may be overkill, but I think there's a very strong consensus that the Runefang is overpriced, to the point of uselessness (if you don't believe me, post an army list with a GoTE armed with a Runefang in the Parade Ground, and ask for pointers...guaranteed you will get several responses urging you to drop the Runefang).
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I think there is a way for a Runefang being useful -even though overpriced-
'Runefang (General of the Empire only)' -what? why? Sure a Runefang is synonymous with the status and authority of the Electors but since often command is delegated to a trusted soldier (General) along with a Runefang(!) then why not Runefangs are not presented to Templars??! They're not 'heroic Generals' as well??!
WS6 A4 + a Runefang(100pts) = Hero Killer (the least)
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You still have the problem of absolutely no magical defenses for your general, even if powerful in close combat.
With armies bringing 5+ PD on a soft list, heroes need protection beyond a high armor save to be worth the points you spend placing them. Besides, most people will feel that there are cheaper weapons to give to a grandmaster and still leave him a combat machine (his stats are excellent, so even with a humbler sword he will chew up the enemy rank and file).
As for monster and enemy character killing, you can't beat the Speculum, and it's cheap enough to slap on even a lowly warrior priest and watch the blood fly (in fact, it's better that way).
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I think there is a way for a Runefang being useful -even though overpriced-
'Runefang (General of the Empire only)' -what? why? Sure a Runefang is synonymous with the status and authority of the Electors but since often command is delegated to a trusted soldier (General) along with a Runefang(!) then why not Runefangs are not presented to Templars??! They're not 'heroic Generals' as well??!
WS6 A4 + a Runefang(100pts) = Hero Killer (the least)
You've already said it, the Runefang is synonymous with the status and authority of an elector count. Wielding a runefang isn't about who commands the army its about who has been elected to run the province. The runefang isn't just a general's sword, its a badge of office, the office being elector count. Whats more they can't just go around dishing out runefangs willy nilly to whoever they think deserves one, a limited number were made by a legendary dwarf smith, one for each electoral province, they don't have a runefang factory somewhere out the back of Stirland.
The only exception is when they recovered the Solland runefang, with no elector to wield it, it was laid in reserve for great heroes of the Empire and is currently wielded by Kurt Helborg. Perhaps the next time a province goes under they'll be in a position to hand out another.
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YES! ...but since often command is delegated to a trusted soldier (General) along with a Runefang(!)... :closed-eyes: :-P
The only exception is when they recovered the Solland runefang, with no elector to wield it, it was laid in reserve for great heroes of the Empire and is currently wielded by Kurt Helborg. Perhaps the next time a province goes under they'll be in a position to hand out another.
...I think I got a headace... :? ...so many infos to memorise... :eusa_wall: Well... Then they should give the Grandmaster that Runefang... I don't know..I give up.. :laugh: :-P
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Personally, I think the idea that an elector count would hand out a Runefang to a trusted templar just as possible as handing it to a trusted soldier. My point was that changing this restriction does nothing to make the item itself more appealing. Nor do I care enough to push for such a change.
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I believe we're asking for too much here! We are commanding humans and we must have weaknesses, especially when wielding a powerful weapon like a Runefang (auto-wound! no armour saves allowed!)
General and Grandmaster both have high strength, toughness and attacks compared to a normal man. If they're wielding such a devastating weapon, they must have a weakness (such the lack of magical defenses) otherwise we'll mistake them for DEMONS!! :laugh: :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
I think, -what the 'inventor' of the Runefang is expecting- is that whoever Runefang hits, will probably not live long enough to answer back
Maybe they should add a rule that's going like: "During the turn the wielder of the Runefang charges into combat, will strike first even against opponents having the ASF rule to their profle"
And if that ain't work, we always have our 1+ AS :dry:
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I've taken a general with a Runefang before and people laugh at my General and say where is your war alter huh?
Then he hits the chaos lord three times and says where is your ward save?
They fail all and i say there is my General hahaha
lol like that ever happens.
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YES! ...but since often command is delegated to a trusted soldier (General) along with a Runefang(!)... :closed-eyes: :-P
Why would he? Think about the scale of a warhammer game for a minute, as an elector, would you really give your priceless magical sword to one of your captains in order for him to lead 2 dozen great swords and a few units of state troops?
The Runefang is the Elector counts sword, a Templar grandmaster is going to have his own sword. Besides when the army of a full province goes to war it would be commanded by its elector, I mean whether the Elector gives his runefang to a province general is irrelevant right, they'd both be represented by the GoTE profile in any case. I can't think of a situation where a Grandmaster would be presented with a Runefang by an elector count, they're far too proud.
With regards to the solland runefang, Kurt Helborg has it, so if you want a TGM with a runefang, field him.
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Is everyone forgetting the Drakwald Runefang? In the fluff regarding runefangs they are given out to heroic generals in dire need.
The Drakwald Runefang isn't needed anymore by any province so that could be the one that they give out
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Is everyone forgetting the Drakwald Runefang? In the fluff regarding runefangs they are given out to heroic generals in dire need.
The Drakwald Runefang isn't needed anymore by any province so that could be the one that they give out
]
I believe it was taken by Nordland, because they aren't an original Province.
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The Drakwald Runefang isn't needed anymore by any province so that could be the one that they give out
Good thought! :wink:
...would you really give your priceless magical sword to one of your captains in order for him to lead 2 dozen great swords and a few units of state troops?
HELL NO!!! :laugh:
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The Drakwald Runefang isn't needed anymore by any province so that could be the one that they give out
Thats not true in the armies book as the elector of Nordland used to be ruler of marienburg and when they seceded he was banished upon pain of death.
Unless you have something to prove otherwise :happy:
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That's another thing. Why doesn't Kurt Helborg (and Karl Franz) have a shield?
My Burgomeister (Marienburg Elector Count) has full plate, shield, and a barded warhorse (and a Runefang :icon_razz:) but Kurt can't get such basic kit?
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Doesn't the karl franz model have a sheild?
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No. A best of a 2+ armour save for Karl Franz on horseback (which is why I like the Valten model).
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Gw annoy me sometimes. :dry:
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Gw annoy me sometimes. :dry:
Only sometimes? Comon GW, you can do better than that! :biggriin:
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Would't an Elector Count have an entorage? A group of follower, caretakers, bodyguard and the like?
Elector Count(-es) +125pts
Equipment; Fullplate Armour, Runefang and up to an aditional 50pts of magical items.
BsB. An Elector Count allways have there personal standard with them; May take any magical banner, no price limit.
Body Guards; Re-roll any failed armour saves.
May take a single unit of Greatswords as a core unit.
Any unit he/she joins become immune to panic.
The hole unit is a single model on a 4*4 base with +1 wound.
Thats my idea :biggriin:
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I also like the idea of orders or formations that generals can buy similar to the imperial guard
things like:
free turns
sprinting
shield wall
2 rank shooting
fast cavalry esque baiting
or more powerful things like:
+1 to table sides
redeploy d3 units
d3 combat resolution
now that i think about it even province/city specific traits:
hochland- multiple huntsmen/ rifles
nuln- 1 core warmachine
etc (im not great on province and city speciality)
And finally can we please have a heavy barding upgrade for the griffon for around 15pts for 5+ or 4+ armour for the griffon, most of the pictures depict them with plate or mail on
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That's another thing. Why doesn't Kurt Helborg (and Karl Franz) have a shield?
No doubt! I've always thought they should have sheilds. Besides, that cool Karl Franz sheild with the raven on it (from the general kit) is just begging to go on the Karl Franz model.
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but surely if you gave the griffon fullplate it couldn't fly
it would have like half a ton of metal strapped to it
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Armour doesn't weigh quite that much. I brettonian pegasus knights can have barding the so surely can empire pegasus and the much stronger fliers of griffins and dragons.
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why dont you just make some and then agree some rules with your friends