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The General Archive => Empire Army Book 8th Edition => Core => Topic started by: Rodman49 on November 29, 2009, 08:49:11 AM

Title: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Rodman49 on November 29, 2009, 08:49:11 AM
 :biggriin: Sigmar told me . . . :biggriin:
1.  Swordsmen - No change.
2.  Halberds - Rulebook change.  Fight in two ranks.  Subsequent ranks only ever fight with one attack.
3.  Spears - Rulebook change.  Count as being behind defended obstacle.

Result:
Empire Halbediers now fight in two ranks at Strength 4.  Chaos Warriors and Temple Guard see a small increase in attacks per frontage if using halberds (which makes them more competitive with Great Weapons for Warriors).  Stormvermin now fight in two ranks making them better (needed buff).  Black Guard become better but don't really kill anything harder than they already did.  Phoenix Guard now on par with Swordmasters and White Lions.

Spears actually good for something rather than just being worse than Swordsmen.  Spears are anti-cav.  Swordsmen have better WS, I, and Armor Save so are best in most situations for casualty denial.  Elven spearmen and Saurus get much needed buffs.  Dominance of Cav slightly diminished.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Bunkka-pop on November 29, 2009, 09:50:49 AM
Well I have to say that although those are rather small changes (not like "ward save for halbs?!?") they still seem to balance the statetroop choices quite well. At least when I quickly thought about it.

But would the halberdiers lose the second rank attacks in charge like spears do?

Must do some math to see the differences...

edit: muahah, some maths done...

WARNING! Lots of mathematic stuff ahead! Reading further may cause headache and slight nausea.

Well, I've only covered four options that I see rather different. I may've done some mistakes, so just report if you find any. but onto the testing:

First I wanted to find out how well they would do against my nemesis, saurus warriors:

saurus warriors(w. hand weapons, 6 wide) charge swordsmen: ~~ 2.8 swordsmen die. Strikes back do ~~ 0.2 wounds
same saurus warriors charge halberdiers: ~~ 4.3 halberdiers die. Strikes back do ~~ 0.8 wounds
same saurus warrior charge spearmen: spearmen attack first due higher I. They do 0.91 wounds. The saurus strike back dealing ~~ 3.1 wounds

Round-up: against hitty but low-I foes, spearmen are now actually better than swordsmen. Halberdiers are still the worst choice, but the difference to swordsmen is now only about 1 combat resolution

while chargin the same saurus unit:
swordsmen: 0.44 kills, saurus strike down 2.6 swordsmen.
spearmen: 0.44 kills, saurus strike down 3.3 spearmen
halberdiers (with one rank): 0.75 kills, saurus kill 3.8 halberdiers
... but if they had the another rank attacking too: 1.37 saurus die. 3.41 halberdiers die

So, the swordsmen would be best if the halberdiers would get only one rank in charge, but if halbs got their other rank too, the situation would be even, if not tipping a bit for halberdiers favour.


Buut, the same stuff against n.gobbos (5 wide and w. HW and shield)..:

ngobbos charge:
swordsmen: 0.75 get killed, but they strike down 1.1 goblins in return.
spearmen: although counting as defended obstacle, night goblins attack first due higher I: 1 spearmen gets killed, but remaining strike 2.2 down
halberdiers: 1.25 are struck down, but remaining strike 3.6 down in return.

Now if the men of empire would get the charge off..
swordsmen: 1.3 kills, goblins kill 0.5 in return.
spearmen: 1.3 kills, goblins kill 0.7 in return
halbs(one rank): 2.2 kills, gobs kill 0.7 in return
halbs (w. second rank): 4 kills, goblin champion (the only alive) kills 0.4

So against weak stuff like night goblins, the halberdiers would rule, and if they had another rank while charging, one could even call them destructive (for empire, that is)


Now, if we would pit them against something very destructive, like, khorne chaos warriors with halberds..

warriors charge (6 wide)
swordsmen: 8.79 get killed. champ strikes back killing 0.16 warriors...
spearmen: warriors attack first due higher I: 10.5 spearmen get killed. champ kills 0.16 warriors
halberdiers: 10.5 halbs die, champ kills 0.3 in return.

state troopers charge:
swordsmen: 0.5 warriors die, remaining devastate 8.1 swordsmen
spearmen: 0.5 warriors die, 9.7 spearmen die in return
halbs(1 rank): 1 warrior dies, 8.8 halberdiers die
halbs (2 ranks): 1.8 warriors die, 7.5 halberdiers are killed in return.

So allthough the men of empire would get their butts handed at them no matter the situation, the swordsmen would survive bit better, but if halberdiers would get the charge off and had the other rank attacking too, They would be losing only with two or three in combat res.

last will be cavalry, let's say, empire inner circle knights w. lances (6 wide)

If they got the charge (duh-huh..)

swordsmen: knights kill 2.9, horses trample 0.75 more. 0.09 are killed in return
spearmen: tie in initiative, if knights get to attack first: 2.5 are killed(that much even without lance bonus?), steeds kill one more. 0.31 knights get killed.
but if spearmen get to attack firs: 0.45 knights die. knights kill 2 spearmen and steeds do 0.9 wounds more
halbs: 3.8 halbs die, steeds do 1.25 wounds. halberdiers kill 0.3 in return.

So, surprisingly with their defended obstacle special rule, spearmen did best against knights.

In light of these results, the options seem to be bit more even. And for halberdiers attacking in two ranks, I'd recommend letting them to do so while charging too. That would make the odds bit more even
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Derek Contyre on November 29, 2009, 12:21:16 PM
Nice reporting on mathammer :icon_mrgreen:

i think you are right with the two ranks for the halberds, maybe they chould change it to always fight with two ranks even when charging?
defended obstacle with spearmen is good and swordsmen, pfff i don't care about the empire's finest i field spearmen and halberdiers  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Rodman49 on December 01, 2009, 10:31:00 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure about the charing and fighting in two ranks.  That just means we'd see spears with halberd detachments.

I think that setup works well.  Halberds a defensive troops who kill, Spears are defensive troops who deny kills, and Swordsmen are offensive troops who deny kills.  This makes every unit fill slightly different roles.

From your math it looks like Halberds beatdown T3, one attack guys.  Spears stop Cav, and Swordsmen are best of the three on the charge.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Inarticulate on December 01, 2009, 10:44:16 PM
Get rid of spears and replace with pikes. Give Halbs fight in 2 ranks.

Done.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Atrocity on December 01, 2009, 11:02:16 PM
Halberds in 2 ranks? NO WAY, black guards and chosen get to much of a buff..

Halberdier state troops fighting in 2 ranks, YES WAY, only we get buff and only we need it  :smile2:
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Derek Contyre on December 01, 2009, 11:27:55 PM
hmmm, lets see, black guard. 15pts or so?
imperial spearman. . . 6. I know who i'd take. . . with handgunners :icon_twisted:
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Bunkka-pop on December 02, 2009, 12:25:11 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure about the charing and fighting in two ranks.  That just means we'd see spears with halberd detachments.

... Oor, halberdiers with halberdier detachments! Now how cool would that be?

Plus, one can see from the calculations that halberdiers stop being good if you prevent the second rank from attacking in charge. They just turn into second-rate spearmen. Also, If I've understood right, halberdiers were used historically in a very aggressive way. With only one rank attacking in charge, there is very little point in charging with halberdiers.

Halberds in 2 ranks? NO WAY, black guards and chosen get to much of a buff..

Halberdier state troops fighting in 2 ranks, YES WAY, only we get buff and only we need it  :smile2:

Black guards and chosen? Just do what you've done before, blast them & redirect. Besides, they get only one attack from the second rank, which really ain't much for them.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on December 02, 2009, 11:41:34 PM
Make a rule called imperial phalanx, applied to pikes, halbs, and spears which allows this rule for them and no other armies or unit types in the game.  Done, next.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Atrocity on December 03, 2009, 04:00:43 AM
Quote from: Bunkka-pop link=topic=31462.msg460877#msg460877
Black guards and chosen? Just do what you've done before, blast them & redirect. Besides, they get only one attack from the second rank, which really ain't much for them.

Not much? A unit of 12 chosen suddenly getting 19 attacks instead of 13? I'd say that's quite an increase! And with S5 instead of 4...it's a big deal.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Rodman49 on December 03, 2009, 06:30:18 AM
Make a rule called imperial phalanx, applied to pikes, halbs, and spears which allows this rule for them and no other armies or unit types in the game.  Done, next.

From a design perspective I believe this causes problems where every unit in the game will start getting tons of special rules.  A lot of the appeal of Fantasy is its simplicity.  I think an overarching rule makes more sense - by just piling tons and tons of rules into every unit in every army you make it harder for everyone to know all the rules and its looks a little sloppy.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Bunkka-pop on December 03, 2009, 01:17:51 PM
Not much? A unit of 12 chosen suddenly getting 19 attacks instead of 13? I'd say that's quite an increase! And with S5 instead of 4...it's a big deal.

If it such a big case, why not remove halberds from these guys? OR if one wants to keep them, then increase points accordingly? A unit of 12 chosen is still very prone to shooting, no matter the melee power they have.

Of course one could make these spear & halberd improvement rules apply for empire only, but that would arouse lot of complain like "well why can't our great high elven spearmen count as defended obstacle too, afterall they are much more skilled in the ways of war blahblahblah..." or "But our chaos chosen should be able to attack from two ranks with halberds too, they are so awesum hurdurdur.." etc. So it would be better to make the basic rules change, and then adjust other books accordingly afterwards. When only problems seems to be the chaos chosen & warriors, I think the whole game system wouldn't break just for that.

Besides, it still doesn't prevent one from shooting and redirecting them, as I pointed out in my previous post.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Holland on December 03, 2009, 03:07:05 PM
I support these changes one hundred present! these changes would not only make these weapons better and more dynamic to use but would give a nod to the real world application and tactics of the tools of war.

a round of beers for Rodman49!  :::cheers:::  :eusa_clap:  :eusa_clap:  :eusa_clap:  :::cheers:::  :eusa_clap:
 :::cheers:::


Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: darkman889 on December 03, 2009, 06:10:16 PM
What if we could upgrade a State Troop according to province?  Mordheim rules have different provinces with different abilities; Middenheim gets +1 str, Reikland gets +1 BS or +1 LD, Marienburg could get heavy armor, Averland gets +1 BS, Ostlanders become immune to fear (that would be too much though) etc etc.

I like this in that you could make the Empire just that much more versatile; point costs and stuff could be worked out to make it work. 
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Bunkka-pop on December 03, 2009, 08:44:24 PM
Ok, so one of my friends (a very uncompetitive VC player) found that he really likes these basic rule changes too, so soon I can give results how these rules work in action!  :::cheers:::

What if we could upgrade a State Troop according to province?  Mordheim rules have different provinces with different abilities; Middenheim gets +1 str, Reikland gets +1 BS or +1 LD, Marienburg could get heavy armor, Averland gets +1 BS, Ostlanders become immune to fear (that would be too much though) etc etc.

I like this in that you could make the Empire just that much more versatile; point costs and stuff could be worked out to make it work. 

No offense here, but with that different suggestion, I think that you should start own thread for it?
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Empireguard on December 03, 2009, 10:25:38 PM
I have said this before and Iíll say it again there is nothing wrong with Halberds Itís our Halberdiers that need the change. If you change the Halberd itself itís going to stuff around with a lot of other armies that donít need the bonus.

If they are going to change it needs to be to our troops that change not the Halberd rule. It also needs to be a simple change so a stats change, equipment change, points change or a common special rule change (Stubborn, fearless, Hatred, Frenzy ...etc) not some new special rule. The way suggestions are going no one will want to play against empire as it will take too long to deal with all rules.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Derek Contyre on December 04, 2009, 09:54:36 PM
I suggest changing the weapons rules like what rodman said.
Think about it, sure the high elves have one unit with halberds that is a special choice and chaos chosen can take them, but the points costs for those halberds are 15 and 22 points respectively while for the same halberd we are paying 5. its simple numbers, we do the same thing for far lesser points, and we have handgunners to back them up with, they dont.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Rodman49 on December 25, 2009, 07:14:45 PM
I mean, I still feel as if its the best small scale solution.  It makes Spears great, which lessens the value of Cav, and then makes Halberds more effective to deal with infantry.  Sword and Shield infantry still play a role because if we see more spears, Swordsmen are the obvious counter.

All this other Jazz about Ward Saves and stuff is questionable and puts down way too many special rules.  Other issues about infantry such as horrendous movement penalties and the like are not Empire specific and could be dealt with in the main rulebook; maybe something like Infantry units can turn for free (but may not march) similar to Drilled in WAB.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: MagicJuggler on December 26, 2009, 07:13:52 PM
Would the defended obstacle bonus spearmen would get count against all sides, or just the front? Likewisee, how would it affect Impact Hits...would this make the Steam Tank functionally useless against spearwalls?
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Derek Contyre on December 27, 2009, 11:58:35 AM
Hmmm. I'd say only to the front, unless we introduce formations to our state troops , like the schiltrom?
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Inarticulate on December 27, 2009, 12:22:27 PM
would this make the Steam Tank functionally useless against spearwalls?

I don't think some twerp with a pointy stick could stop a couple of tons of metal.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: kk14 on December 27, 2009, 12:43:45 PM
Also, impact hits are not removed by a defended obstacle, are they? Even if so, the steam tank gets them in subsequent turns.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: peraturabo on December 30, 2009, 11:56:34 PM
rodman49@.:your rules definitively rule! :D
This may be the solution
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on December 31, 2009, 04:10:30 AM
so tell me rodman how does my proposal of an empire specific rule like "imperial phalanx" differ from your proposal of a WAB like "drilled" rule.  what we call it is somewhat irrelevant, it's the effect that matters.  combining the WAB "phalanx" rules with elements of "drilled" and/or a reciprocal detatchment rule would probably be the best solution for all empire CC infantry.  But what do I know I've only been playing WAB since it first came out and WFB since 91.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Sir Lukas von Markov on January 02, 2010, 08:25:29 AM
Hey rodman49, just so you know, that is possibly the neatest, most concise, most efficient solution to the halberdier dilemma i have seen, and i have been trawling the forums looking for what people are thinking.

It works well, it is not too big a boost to other armies as if chaos chosen get you in combat they are gonna mop the floor with you, extra attacks or not, and as for the spearmen, i like that too  :biggriin:

Not only do your suggestions fit the real world application and history of the weapons, the also in my opinion, they fit the warhammer environment, which is a rare thing. nice job :icon_biggrin:

@bunkka-pop: Thanks for the mathhammer,  :icon_mrgreen: nicely lets us see how good and well fitting such a change would be
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Zarkdon on January 25, 2010, 04:38:54 AM
would this make the Steam Tank functionally useless against spearwalls?

I don't think some twerp with a pointy stick could stop a couple of tons of metal.

dont forget the stank ignores defended obsticals
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: MagicJuggler on January 25, 2010, 01:53:17 PM
In that case, this works, while also keeping Chariots relatively depowered (save for flank attacks but hey...).

Alternate rule perhaps: The Defended Obstacle to the Front Arc only applies if the spear unit isn't already engaged in combat? Example being: If you charge it in the flank with some swordsmen, then charge it in the front next turn with chariots...
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Rodman49 on March 02, 2010, 06:11:54 PM
so tell me rodman how does my proposal of an empire specific rule like "imperial phalanx" differ from your proposal of a WAB like "drilled" rule.  what we call it is somewhat irrelevant, it's the effect that matters.  combining the WAB "phalanx" rules with elements of "drilled" and/or a reciprocal detatchment rule would probably be the best solution for all empire CC infantry.  But what do I know I've only been playing WAB since it first came out and WFB since 91.

I wasn't applying Drilled to just Empire infantry.  I was talking about a rulebook change in which all infantry would get a free turn in the movement phase like infantry.  The problems that us Empire players are having with regards to infantry are endemic of most armies in Warhammer currently.  Therefore we should not only consider slightly changing the Empire book but also the rulebook.

Admittedly from what I have heard it looks like all infantry will always fight with 2 ranks.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on March 03, 2010, 08:57:49 AM
Yes this surely will push light and medium infantry and elite infantry not.  :icon_rolleyes:

I think a free reform before the movement phase would help infantry immensly.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Derek Contyre on March 08, 2010, 07:09:15 AM
Yeah, lets just turn this into 40k ??? shall we
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Smythen on March 31, 2010, 08:10:44 AM
Just give us Pikes. And keep those spearmen and halbardiers for fluf and detachments.
Times change and finally the Electors has decided that the pike is supperior to the halbard.
GW would love this, a whole bunch of now useless units and a new plastic box set that every empire general would kill to get.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: Rodman49 on April 01, 2010, 05:13:38 AM
Just give us Pikes. And keep those spearmen and halbardiers for fluf and detachments.
Times change and finally the Electors has decided that the pike is supperior to the halbard.
GW would love this, a whole bunch of now useless units and a new plastic box set that every empire general would kill to get.

Why don't they just make Halberds good?  Then they can sell us the same damn box without having to make a new mold.
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: der Hurenwiebel on April 01, 2010, 05:19:19 PM
Neither Drilled nor a free reform is turning this into 40K these rules exist in the warhammer historical rules and denote a difference between professional and feudal, warband, or militia armies.  The same difference as exists between empire and the other races in fantasy.  The elves as long lived and swift acting as they are, are still essentially a militia army which is why their rules are they way they are.  Chaos likewise as with all the other races they all have their special characteristics.  A suite of rules added to the detachment set or state troops set would be in character and in tradition for warhammer in general.

I agree with adding pikes as a new weapon option but it would not materially change the fragility or general use of the state troops, likewise heavy armour for most unit types wouldn't change much.  Nor would changing their character profile be fluffy they need to still be basic men, not superheroes but men with training.  Changing their psychology, training profiles would however affect their play styles a great deal and that is more in my opinion what is needed, essentially a revamp of the detachment/state troops system.  Looking to the warhammer historical books for references is in my opinion a very good way to see what wheels have been tried in the past and determine, so to speak, which set we'd like to try on for the revamp of the state troops in the empire army. 
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: DanteValentine on May 18, 2010, 03:35:50 PM
Personnally, i would love if all of a sudden Halberds allowed you to attack in 2 ranks.
Empire Halberdiers would get a very small but nice boost.
Things like Chosen or Dark Elf Blackguard would become units of utter butchery.

A unit 7 wide and 2 deep would suddenly get 29 Str 4 attacks rerolling misses. I dont care what its attacking that is going to hurt! (Stats based on Blackguard).

I think maybe, rather than just making a sweeping rule change like that, something more appropraite would be:

Subequent ranks of Empire Troops armed with halberds contribute 50% (Rounded up)of their attacks to the fight if they outnumber the enemy, representing overwhelming numbers and the Empires advanced Halberd drills.
Eg:

a unit of 28 Halbderdiers (7 wide x 4 deep) is fighting a unit of 20 Orcs (5 wide x 4 deep).
The front rank of halberdiers get all their attacks: 7
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th Ranks contribute 50% of their attacks. 21/2 = 10.5 = 11 extra attacks.

This would encourage BIG BIG units of state troops that would still be able to do considerable damage based on their numbers.

Just my idea.

Regards
Dante
Title: Re: Sigmar Came to Me. He Told Me How to Fix Core Infantry.
Post by: sniperjolly on July 14, 2010, 08:57:23 AM
I have to say, the man is a veritible prophet. Presumably of sigmar. We can all go home and rest easy that 8th makes halbreds viable. Thank you for subliminaly influencing GW's design team.