Topic: 2nd 2K attempt - truly horde style (semi-Batallion tactics)

[Adam Sheppard]

Having read the modified TVI tactica on this website, I thought I would have a go at making a second army list. I won't quite be using the whole TVI tactics, but rather a modification of them that provide better strengths but also some weaknesses, as after all I would be compromising the line a little, which is contra-TVI.

What do you think of this army then - and how should I improve it/round off points?

Many thanks for any hints/suggestions you can put forth - still getting to grips with the Empire, and wondering if I'm on the right track.


Thematically, I'm aiming at an army that contains heavy Sigmarite influence, but isn't a sigmarite army - it's the army of a noble Count of Weissland/Border Princes who is fairly pious, but pays respect (in military considerations) to the colleges of Magic and Nuln (engineering) to further his political aims.

My Regiments will therefore be either in Weissland or DIY colours, my Handgunners will probably be in Green (throwback reference to Sharpe), and the Knights will be from one of the following: Knights of Sigmar's Blood, Order of the Gold Lion or Knights Panther - whatever I find fits my theme best, once details are worked out.


Lords   

Wizard Lord: Level 4, Hand Weapon, Armour of Tarnus, Dispel Scroll, Wizard's Staff & Orb of Thunder.      
            310 (Army General, joins Swordsmen)   
                  
Heroes   

Captain of the Empire: Hammer of Judgement, Armour of Meteoric Iron & Imperial Pegasus.      
            150 (works with Knightly Orders)
                  
Warrior Priest: Great Weapon & Heavy Armour.   
            98 (joins Spearmen 1)
                  
Warrior Priest: Great Weapon & Heavy Armour.
            98 (joins Spearmen 2)   
                  
Core   

Knightly Order 1 - 5 Knights: Preceptor.
            131      
                  
Knightly Order 2 - 5 Knights: Preceptor.
            131      
                  
Spearmen 1 - 24 Spearmen: Full Command.
            140      
                  
Halberdier Detachment - 10 Halberdiers.
            50      
                  
Crossbow Detachment - 10 Crossbowmen.
            80      
                  
Spearmen 2 - 24 Spearmen: Full Command.
            140      
                  
Halberdier Detachment - 10 Halberdiers.
            50      
                  
Crossbow Detachment - 10 Crossbowmen.
            80   
                  
Swordsmen - 19 Swordsmen: Full Command.
            139      
                  
Handgunners - 10 Handgunners: Marksman w/ Hochland Long Rifle.      
            105      
                  
Special   

Great Cannon 1   
            100      
                  
Great Cannon 2   
            100         
                  
Rare   

Flagellants - 15 Flagellants.      
            150      
                  
            1947 (53 to go still)   
         
146 Models         
2 Artillery + Crew


Flagellants anchor one flank, Infantry blocks and detachments make a centre, Cannons and Handgunners hold the other flank (angled inwards), and the Knights + Captain rush up this flank.


So, is it any good? I've got lots of models, and lots of ranks, plus some shooting and magic defence, so it seems everything is there, but would appreciate suggestions from more experienced Empire players (had the book since yesterday, though have been planning the army for some while with what I gleaned from the internet...)         

[Perambulator]

Your Wizard Lord is aching to take the Rod of Power instead of the Wizard's Staff - especially with the extra dispel die from the priests. I would drop the Orb of Thunder, because if you ever get it off, your Pegasus will be useless and unless you know you enemy is coming with a lot of flying its wasted points.

Be careful of the Pegasus - remember it has no armor save of its own so if your enemy directs its attacks against it, it will go down quickly against tough opponents.

Mount your priests on barded warhorses.

Swap the knight's champions for musicians - trust me you will miss them if you don't have them.

Drop the Spearmen halberdier detachments to 9 a piece (in a 3x3 formation) and drop the crossbow detachments to 5-7 each. Use the spare points to bump up the swordsmen to 24/25 and get it a 9 man detachment of halberdiers and a ranged attack detachment if you can scrape together the points.

 

[cubantie]

youre not ever gonna wanna cast a spell with 5 dices so get rid of the wizard staff

the kit on the pegassus guy is pretty shutty. go with doomfirering/casket + normal stuff. Aomi then could go on a priest

[Adam Sheppard]

@ Preambulator

Swapped Orb of Thunder for Rod of Power - I did have a plan for the Orb, and that was that in a turn I want to reveal it, I let the Wizard and Priests do their thing first, so the enemy runs out of scrolls/spells, then I let rip. My Pegasus can still march along the ground, can't he? That gives him a move of 16" - so not a lot lost. I originally took the Orb because I face a fair few Fell Bat/Carrion/War Hawk Riders/Great Eagles in my area, and thought it would be nice to shut them down for a turn (especially 1st to stop them march blocking, taking out my War Machines etc). With that in mind, is it worth swapping back (rod seems a little risky, but boosting my power/dispel could be equally good against VC/HE/WE, but more so than stopping their key-to-plan flying units?

Pegasus lives by staying out of LOS arcs of units - and in emergencies going on it's toughness (slight chance to survive, but not reliable).

Don't like mounted guys in Foot units - but I could give one the Dawn Armour, and the other Ratslayer Helm, or something - is that helpful at all?

Swapped Champs for Musicians.

How does 3x3 function compared to 5x2 (the only one I've seen used is 5x2)?



@cubantie

Wizard's Staff is gone - originally I took it as the Wizard was only Lvl 3, forgot to drop in when bumping up to Lvl 4.

I quite like this Captain set-up - the Hammer functions almost as a "re-roll to wound", thanks to it's special rule and then the Captains base Str. so I feel it might be quite reliable. One thing I could do though, is drop AoMI, and take Full Plate, Shield [grants 2+ Sv when mounted is factored in] and then either Talisman of Protection or Enchanted Shield (instead of regular) to gain either a Ward Save for the equivalent of the AoMI - comes to the same cost, so do you think that "mundane" equipment would be better?



Finally:

After loosing the Wizards Rod, I have 79 points left. This could be used for:

1) Mortar, to help against enemy regiments

2) Boost Swordsmen numbers

3) Kit-out the Warrior Priests

4) Add in some Free Company

5) Work in some Pistolliers

What do you reckon will help the army most? I think a combination of 2 & 3, but what do you think?

[Perambulator]

3x3 give you a smaller front for the detachments and helps with deployment. It reduces the fronage of weakness in your lines . I've not had any problems with them.

I agree points 2 and 3 are where you should spend the extra points.

[cal von random]

captassus doesn't get the extra save for being mounted

[phillyt]

No on the mortar.  Can you post an updated list reflecting the changes the guys have asked you for?

Phil

[Adam Sheppard]

++EDIT++

I realised I hadn't included the stand-alone Handgunners in the total cost of the last force

That's where the extra points have gone, such as there were.

Updated list:

Lords   

Wizard Lord: Level 4, Hand Weapon, Armour of Tarnus, Dispel Scroll & Rod of Power     
            300 (Army General, joins Swordsmen)   
                 
Heroes   

Captain of the Empire: Hammer of Judgement, Armour of Meteoric Iron & Imperial Pegasus.     
            150 (works with Knightly Orders)
                 
Warrior Priest: Great Weapon & Heavy Armour.   
            98 (joins Spearmen 1)
                 
Warrior Priest: Great Weapon & Heavy Armour.
            98 (joins Spearmen 2)   
                 
Core   

Knightly Order 1 - 5 Knights: Musician
            123   
                 
Knightly Order 2 - 5 Knights: Musician
            123     
                 
Spearmen 1 - 24 Spearmen: Full Command.
            140     
                 
Halberdier Detachment - 9 Halberdiers.
            45
                 
Crossbow Detachment - 9 Crossbowmen.
            72     
                 
Spearmen 2 - 24 Spearmen: Full Command.
            140     
                 
Halberdier Detachment - 9 Halberdiers.
            45     
                 
Crossbow Detachment - 9 Crossbowmen.
            72   
                 
Swordsmen - 19 Swordsmen: Full Command.
            139     
                 
Handgunners - 10 Handgunners: Marksman w/ Hochland Long Rifle.     
            105     
                 
Special   

Great Cannon 1   
            100     
                 
Great Cannon 2   
            100         
                 
Rare   

Flagellants - 15 Flagellants.     
            150     
                 
            2000   
         
142 Models         
2 Artillery + Crew


@ Preambulator:

Don't all units have to be 5-wide, minimum? Can't see anything in the Detachment rules allowing them to be smaller...

If that's the case, I can drop an extra Crossbowman from each unit for an extra Halberdier.

@ cal von random

Thought Pegasus were Flying Cavalry - hangover from Bretonnian days...realise they aren't now. So it would be better to give him the AoMI? Or should I go for an overall 2+ with the Enchanted Shield, and try to work in the points to get AoMI on a Priest?



With this new list, the issue is that I can no longer afford better gear on the Priests - need at least 50 points to gear them up in armour.

Oh, and what is the minimum effective size for Crossbowmen? They don't strike me as the best shots in the worlds, so more is better, but I need extra points - yet don't want it to be at the cost of rendering a unit weak & vulnerable to the enemy (ie, giving away easy VP)

[Perambulator]

The limitation for detachments is that they have to have at least 5 men and can't be more than half (rounded down) as strong as the parent unit. There is no other limitation.

Pegasus are not flying cavalry - it has to be listed in the unit description. For the Empire, Pegasi are monsterous mounts, so no armor save for them.


For ranged attack detachments I go for 5 to 7 strong. 7 is big enough that they aren't too unweildy to be deployed in a striaght line, big enough to cause some damage, but small enough that your enemy has to make real decisions about whether to target them or not and if they are targeted you aren't going to lose a  lot of points if they run and/or die.

[campbell]

Units have to be 5-wide to have a rank bonus. However, you only need unit strength 5 to deny ranks, which is really the main point of your combat detachments. 3x3 cuts down on the space they take up while still maintaining the thing you want them for.

[Adam Sheppard]

Ah, thanks for the clarification on the 5-wide thing.

Here's an updated list:

Lords   

Wizard Lord: Level 4, Armour of Tarnus, Dispel Scroll & Rod of Power.   
            300 (General)
                  
Heroes   

Captain of the Empire: Hammer of Judgement, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield & Imperial Pegasus.      
            148 (mundane 2+ save now)   
                  
Warrior Priest: Great Weapon & Armour of Meteoric Iron.      
            119
                  
Warrior Priest: Hand Weapon, Dawn Armour & Shield.      
            127
                  
Core   

5 Knights: Musician.      
            123   
                  
5 Knights: Musician.      
            123      
                  
24 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.      
            132      
                  
Halberdier Detachment - 9 Halberdiers.      
            45      
                  
Crossbow Detachment - 6 Crossbowmen.      
            48      
                  
24 Spearmen: Musician & Standard Bearer.      
            132      
                  
Halberdier Detachment - 9 Halberdiers.      
            45      
                  
Crossbow Detachment - 6 Crossbowmen.      
            48      
                  
10 Handgunners.
            80   
                  
19 Swordsmen: Full Command.      
            144      
                  
Special   

Great Cannon.   
            100      
                  
Great Cannon.   
            100      
                  
Rare   

15 Flagellants.   
            150      
                  
            1964 (36 to go still)   
         
136 Models + 2 Artillery


I have had some feedback on another forum saying that 19 Swordsmen with no detachment is going to be an utter waste of points (even though they shall be in the middle of a combat line).

With this in mind, I could use the remaining 36 points to "upgrade" them to 14 Greatswords with Full Command - is this likely to be more useful? Has less ranks (5x3 when joined with Wizard), they're equally armoured (in combat), yet hit back harder, so...      

Alternatively I could use 30 of the 36 points to boost my Swordsmen to 24-strong.
   
In addition to this, or instead using 10 of the 36 points, I could swap the Handgunners for some Pistolliers. I am unsure on this yet  -Handgunners would hold my flank and guard the Artillery, whilst supporting the Knights - Pistolliers can equally do this, yet I feel they might not be accurate enough - the low BS and multi-shot rules could hinder them, no (yet can also provide close support for Knights if needs be)?

So I have some options now:

1) Upgrade to Greatswords, and loose 10 Handgunners for 5 Pistolliers.

2) Take an extra 5 Swordsmen.

3) Take Sergeants in the Spearmen, and add 1 more Crossbowman to each unit.

4) Loose Handgunners for Pistolliers, then take EITHER Sergeants in the Spearmen OR 1 more Crossbowman per unit, then take 1 more Halberdier per detachment.

Thanks for all the help so far, any more advice on what to do now?

[Perambulator]

I like the idea of upgrading them to Greatswords then make the 10 handgunners into 2 detachments for it.

You do want full command for your infantry blocks to allow you to take challenges instead of any characters in them as well as to allow you to have some attacks back when the enemy kills more than 4 men.

[Adam Sheppard]

Random question:

Should I loose Armour of Tarnus on the Wizard Lord, and rely on the "Look Out Sir" rolls and accepting challenges with Unit Champions to keep him safe?

If I dump it, I could take the Orb of Thunder that I wanted earlier for emergencies, and have 5 spare points to invest.


Or does having some sort of save actually benefit him, even if he'll be in a unit most of the time?

[Perambulator]

He's your general - I would think you want to keep him as safe as possible. I would even go so far to put him on a barded warhorse.

[Adam Sheppard]

Fair enough, it makes sense.

Here's what the list looks like with the Greatswords - what do you think now?

Lords   

Wizard Lord: Level 4, Armour of Tarnus, Dispel Scroll & Rod of Power.   
            300 (General)
                 
Heroes   

Captain of the Empire: Hammer of Judgement, Full Plate Armour, Enchanted Shield & Imperial Pegasus.     
            148 (mundane 2+ save now)   
                 
Warrior Priest: Great Weapon & Armour of Meteoric Iron.     
            119
                 
Warrior Priest: Hand Weapon, Dawn Armour & Shield.     
            127
                 
Core   

5 Knights: Musician.     
            123   
                 
5 Knights: Musician.     
            123     
                 
24 Spearmen: Full Command.     
            140     
                 
Halberdier Detachment - 9 Halberdiers.     
            45     
                 
Crossbow Detachment - 5 Crossbowmen.     
            40   
                 
24 Spearmen: Full Command.     
            140     
                 
Halberdier Detachment - 9 Halberdiers.     
            45     
                 
Crossbow Detachment - 5 Crossbowmen.     
            40     
                 
10 Handgunners.
            80   
                           
Special   

Great Cannon.   
            100     
                 
Great Cannon.   
            100

14 Greatswords: Full Command.
170     
                 
Rare   

15 Flagellants.   
            150     
                 
            1990 (10 to go still)   
         
129 Models + 2 Artillery

Decided not to make the Handgunners detachments as they're going to be deployed with the Artillery, not the main line - and detachment rules state you need to deploy within 3" of the parent.

I can't see where to get an extra 5 points (or 9) to mount the Wizard Lord - looks like he'll be running about on foot - at least he has a semblance of a save!

What to do with the last 10 points?

1) Drop Handgunners for 5 Pistolliers

2) Add Prophet of Doom to Flagellants

Thanks for all the help guys, been really useful in helping me sort things out.

[dabber]

If you aren't gonig to put him on a barded warhorse, the armour of taurus on your wizard lord is not worthwhile.  Not even close.  If you really want a save, buy him the Holy Relic.  Usually you just have to protect him by no letting him get into close combat.

[Adam Sheppard]

That is an option, and I certainly can afford it - both in points, and room in magic allowance on the Wizard.

Just been fiddling around with a few Wizard combinations after reading the Magic tactica on this site (somewhere). Came up with a few Wizard Lord outfits that I would like some opinions on.

I was thinking of 2 schools of thought with this one:

1) PROTECT THE GENERAL - give him some armour so that he stands a chane of surviving if anything 'goes to town' on him.

2) DISCRETION IS THE BETTER PART OF VALOUR - accept challenges with Champions, generally try to avoid getting hit in CC, flee the unit before the enemy charges it (put the ex-Babysitters in front so Wizard he can't be charged) - thus armour is not needed. I think this may be viable as they Greatswords are very unlikely to break, and so the enemy can't over-run into the Wizard.

So, fitting under 1)

A

Holy Relic, Dispel Scroll & Rod of Power.
310

Allows the Wizard a good Ward Save, and can store unused Power/Dispel dice.

B

Armour of Tarnus, Dispel Scroll, Grey Wand.
   310

Still has a Ward Save, if not a brilliant one, and can is more likely to force Magic through thanks to the Wand (and thus makes it harder for the enemy to dispel too). With only 6 PD, Wand allows me to go for reliably casting more smaller spells on less dice than normal, or for a big spell and a small one (whereas might normally only be able to afford a big).

C

Armour of Tarnus, Dispel Scroll, Orb of Thunder.
300   

Still has a Ward Save, if not a brilliant one, and can prevent enemy Mage/War Machine hunters from doing their thing, by stopping Terradons, Fell Bats, Pegasus Knights, Pegasus in general, Warhawk Riders, Great Eagles, Characters on anything Flying, Screamers etc. Situational, and equipment wasted if no flyers present.


Then under 2)

D

Orb of Thunder, Dispel Scroll & Grey Wand.
   305

No armour, but can cast effectively AND ground flyers, making him more of a supporting character. The extra bound spell of the Orb is nice too. This is more effective offense wise than C, as the Wand will take effect even without Flyers.


Lore wise, I am thinking of going either Shadows, Fire or Metal depending on my opponent (hoping to roll for some decent big spells) - hence the Grey Wand is tempting, as I can run the risk of casting bigger spells on 3 dice, not 4. I am unsure on the Rod of Power, as there is a fair chance to loose the dice stored, and I don't have many power dice to convert to dispel, or vice versa (I have just about enough magic to go for an assault/defense mix, instead of all for one or the other, imo)


What do you think of the different combinations, and the armour/no armour debate?


Thanks for all the advice! Been really helpful.

[Perambulator]

dabber, as usual, raises a good point. I'd go with option 3.

[Adam Sheppard]

You posted as I changed my post - what do you feel about the points raised in the edited post?

[Perambulator]

The Rod of Power is almost a default item for me, that's why I lean towards option A.

Don't be greedy - only store up to 2 die in it at a time.