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Author Topic: How to really fix the halberd...  (Read 11000 times)

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2009, 11:18:32 PM »
In fluff wise the empire has both. The southern states tend to replace the spear with the pike but in the north the spear has almost replaced the halberd as most commonly used soldier as they are a cheap man and easy to train.
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Offline Perius

  • Posts: 62
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2009, 10:00:15 AM »
Fluff wise, regiments of spearmen are raised by poorer provinces in a rush; see either the 6th or 7th edition Empire book.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2009, 12:34:10 PM »
Not necessarily poorer provinces.
But back to the halberd lol
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Offline bornbm01

  • Posts: 122
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2009, 02:45:21 AM »
I know this doesn't fit perfectly but the Warhammer RPG interpretation of a halberd makes it versatile. A character using a halberd can either "chop" (strike slow and have a chance to do extra damage) or "poke" (strike very fast).  I think the way to fix halberds is to make them +1 S and ASF on the first round of combat when fighting to the front .  It makes sense.  Like in braveheart, the long pointy things should hit the enemy first as they charge in.  pikes, spears, halbs : I think these 3 should be able to make a wall of spikes that can actually threaten chargers; like a Phalanx etc..

- Brendan

Offline bornbm01

  • Posts: 122
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2009, 02:52:10 AM »
Also  ASF on the first turn fighting to the front wouldn't do much in terms of Blackguard as they almost always have the strike first banner anyway.  They strike first and we would have a chance to strike first. 
- Brendan

Offline javy241677

  • Posts: 2
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2009, 02:29:28 PM »
I think while you are right about the Black Guard. The Black Guard is more expensive and is a special choice if I am not mistaken while Halbs will be cheaper and Core.
That might be worth it.

Offline Skyros

  • Posts: 1289
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2009, 03:44:06 PM »
I'm not sure that trying to change the halberd itself is the best way to go, as many people have halberds.

I'd rather see a fix specific to halberdiers.

One could raise their WS. That would certainly help, although it may not be sufficient on its own.
Or you could make them come with heavy armor. Both of those together would probably make them competitive with swordsmen. One point would get you +1 save (and more init, which matters much less).

What would it look like if halberdiers were one point cheaper than they are?

Offline Empireguard

  • Posts: 146
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2009, 10:17:36 PM »
I'm not sure that trying to change the halberd itself is the best way to go, as many people have halberds.

I'd rather see a fix specific to halberdiers.

Yes agreed I think we need to remember that it not that halberds suck they are great for some armies/units, It’s that our Halberdiers suck.

So something like Halberdiers getting
Heavy armour (no shield option),
WS 4 and/or I 4, 
Killing blow
Or some other change to our Halberdiers is what we need not a change to the Halberd.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2009, 10:44:25 AM »
Just remove halberds all together and retcon them to pikemen. 

Spearmen should be cheaper than these new halberdier/pikemen and have shields to make them a valid choice.
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Offline Bunkka-pop

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2009, 01:58:49 PM »
Just remove halberds all together...

 :icon_eek:

What in the name of sigmar IS THIS?!?!

BURN THE HERETIC!!!  ::heretic:: ::heretic:: ::heretic::
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Offline Oswald Jaeger

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 07:51:39 PM »
it's true halberds need to be fixed, at +1 strength in close combat they're pretty pointless, they should give them killing blow  :evil:

think about it though, a heavy weapon.. like an axe on top of a spear, more dangerous than +1 strength

Offline Johedl

  • Posts: 278
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 01:39:18 PM »
I agree with those that argue that halbers doesnīt need to be fixed. Halberdiers and spearmens problem is their stats compaired to swordsmen. Even though both troops can chose to fight with hand weapons and shield (if one has chocen to buy shields for them) they have traded "easier to kill due to lower WS and I" for a bit more flexibility. Granted that state troops of the Empire is better than Men-at-arms from Bretonnia, but they are not the elite rank and file troops of the old world. Perhaps if they were bought as State Troops with Halberdiers stats at 4 points with only light armoure. Spears, halbers and/or shields for +1 point and then had the opption to be uppgraded to state elite for an additional point and get the swordsmans stats. At seven points a modell they would still be inferior to DE warriors but have the opption to use detachments.
Any thoughts?

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1749
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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2009, 09:41:19 AM »
Dark elf spearmen were brought too low.
ws4 i4 ld 8 and everything our speamen have with HATRED for seven points. . . too much.

lol I like the idea of basic halberdiers that can be upgraded to elite status with swordsmen stats. and for seven points maybe make them LD8 as well?

Also, if der Hurenwiebel sees this he will go for a make your own state troop build. . . I have a feeling about it :icon_twisted:
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Johedl

  • Posts: 278
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2009, 10:37:03 AM »
I donīt think that making the rest of the armies better is a good idea. Itīs better to fix the HE and DE spearmen by making them both cost 9 points with shields and light armoure and remove the fight in three ranks ability from the HE. Low cost troops like Men-at-arms and goblins only gets more usless as long as regular troops get better to compete with elite troops of the elves. Just make the elite armies a bit more expenciv so they canīt compete with ordinary rank and file guys on there terms, numbers.
I never liked the idea of Empire with high Ld. We shouldnīt have as high Ld as elves or dwarves. CW only have Ld 9 so why should the Empire have more? Itīs a part of the Empire tactic to cope with lack of good Ld.
Core troops usually are keeped with in range from BSB and have axcess to generals or Hero Ld so itīs not all that important.
Perhaps the elite status should be limited to one unit plus one for each General of the Empire in the army? Making him a better chose.

Offline kk14

  • Posts: 554
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2009, 12:26:33 PM »
I agree with Tineal:

Halberds should be about endurance. Don't fix the weapon just to fix our one empire unit. Give them a heavy armour option instead of a shield. That makes them as survivable as spearmen.

Or, keep the shield and LA and introduce a 'fast swap' rule, in which their training allows them to change weapons rapidly at the start of every combat phase.

Or a 'Hold your Ground' rule: if there is full command in the front rank, the unit can count as rolling 3 on its break test in the first round of every combat. Or perhaps stubborn on the first round of every combat.

These would increase the survivability and effectiveness of halberdiers without changing their role in the army.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2009, 10:44:07 AM »
Yeah making them awesome!

Always count as rolling a 3 are you serious? that is soo good i would use five units and proxy/convert my spears into pikes(fifty pikemen *drool*)
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Offline kk14

  • Posts: 554
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2009, 11:27:13 AM »
Always count as rolling a 3 are you serious? that is soo good i would use five units and proxy/convert my spears into pikes(fifty pikemen *drool*)

You misunderstand me.
Only on the first turn of combat, IF the halberdiers (and not a detachment of them) lose, then they can roll an automatic 3 on their break test. This doesn't mean they *always* roll 3, because they take (and fail) subsequent tests normally, and if they win the first round of combat then they don't get to use the ability. Nor does it protect them from overwhelming odds, or fear or terror, but it gives them a chance against the more average killy units out there. Things like High Elf Spearmen won't break them in one turn, but souped up grave guard probably still will.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2009, 06:11:05 PM »
This would work a little bit like the WAB version of stubborn, and yeah sure I could go for that.  Stubborn in WAB means they ignore thier first break test, this rule is effectively "stubborn light"
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline johnwayne

  • Posts: 302
Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2010, 04:13:18 PM »
give HB's either the option to strike first or to strike with +1 S

House rule. Works perfect. Makes HB the empririal defensive backbone they were meant to be without making them overpowerful or making a CW with HB too powerful.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 04:15:44 PM by johnwayne »