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Author Topic: Archers And Handgunners need some armour  (Read 11072 times)

Offline OmegaOm

  • Posts: 15
Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« on: September 21, 2009, 02:36:12 AM »
To strengthen the Empire, I think the archers and handgunners need to have at least light armour.  The archers need something, at least make them harder to kill.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 03:52:39 AM »
I'd actually go more for a cover save with a pavise, portable +2 cover save simply make them harder to hit.

"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Joelatron

  • Posts: 367
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 05:11:50 AM »
archers already skirmish making them hard to kill, and are usually used as detachments meaning they dont cause panic.

Handgunners i agree with that light armour would be nice, but in reality the 6+ would only save 1 in 6, so not really worth it. I would prefer them to stay at their point cost with no armour

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 02:54:20 PM »
What I would like to see for handgunners:

Instead of -1 for stand and shoot they should get +1 to stand and shoot as that is how muskets were used later on as a short range volley weapon.

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7397
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 02:30:25 PM »
I would love to see handguns as a move and fire weapon, strength 5 AP with a 10 inch range.   That I think would represent how handguns were really used, oh and with a +1 to stand and shoot.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 03:16:44 PM »
Well I wouldn´t suggest move and fire but like pistols always stand and shoot and +1 S 4 is fine as it usually wounds human tough models good enough and even against human targets one bullet seldon instakilled a man.

Hmmm but I would be even happier if handgunners would get ranked fire. They could even stay lazy and keep it like in 40k

first rank.... fire
second rank....fire
third rank....sit around and wait until it is your turn.


Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 01:53:13 AM »
How bout full frontal rank fire and up to half of each of the rest of the ranks can shoot, rounded up.  Eg. 4x5 = 20 handgunners, five shoot in the front rank then 3x 3 shooters in the rest of the ranks can shoot =ing 13 shots of 20 in a facing five wide.  This could be combined with a simple 1/4 movement introduction fire rule and only a -1 penalty for changing facing providing they did not move otherwise or more than a 1/4 of their movement. 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Posts: 1599
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 12:24:01 PM »
first rank.... fire
second rank....fire
third rank....sit around and wait until it is your turn.

Anyone else think about Michael Caine in a pith helmet?
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 12:45:15 PM »
Yes.

Except for the "sit around and wait until it is your turn"-part.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 12:49:53 PM »
common you guys wouldn´t you love to shout this with your handgunners?

Especially while wearing that pith helmet!

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 11:20:25 PM »
I know i would. every time all the time.

Even when they used it on me lol
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline wissenlander

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2009, 12:54:19 PM »
Oh, glorious Zulu. :happy:

To me it's all about the option, you do with it what you want.  Make the points just right and you can pay for whatever you want.

Light armor +1 pt per model
Pavase + 2 pt per model (5+ save, -1" move)
Cannot combine, choose one or the other. 

So you're paying 8 - 10 points depending on what you want.

Archers are fine as they are, I think.  Huntsmen are a different story, though.
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Oswald Jaeger

  • Posts: 15
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2009, 07:53:55 PM »
why can't we have skirmishing handgunners.... like mel gibson in the patriot  :-D

Offline kk14

  • Posts: 554
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2009, 11:31:56 AM »
I like wissenlander's approach.

And they could model us pavises!
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Offline borgar

  • Posts: 316
  • Make war not sense
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2009, 09:36:09 PM »
some good ideas here

the empire need more stuff to reflect its order drills and dicipline besides detachments,
so i was thinking something like this..

Close order fire:

when reciving a charge and declearing a stand and shoot reaction,
the unit may shoot in two ranks if the charge is above half the movent of the charges.

if not the front rank may still fire

normal -s modifier applys for both situations

if this woud be handgunners only or crossbowmen too im not sure.

EDIT: on second thought i think maybe needing the troops to pass a leadership test to use this rule would make it more viable and realistic
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 09:38:51 PM by borgar »
As for borgar - you sir are a genius.

Offline polybus11

  • Posts: 764
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 02:40:54 PM »
Firing in 2 ranks for handgunners makes perfect sense to me after watching movies with Civil war folks.. front rank kneels, second rank stands.

Offline TheElectorCount43

  • Posts: 468
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2011, 02:16:07 PM »
If you want soldiers with pith helmets, then you get the Praetorian guard (imperial guard) because there is a range of Mordians with pith helmets. Anyway this is the early 16th century, not the late 19th.

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2011, 02:05:54 PM »
I certainly wouldn't want armor on handgunners, Xbowmen or archers as they're already overpriced.
Quote from: warhammerlord_soth
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They fired at a can of Heineken.
The end is Neigh! [sic]
Quote from: Swan-of-War
Curse you clearly-written rules!

Offline Ranillon

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 06:18:45 AM »
I certainly wouldn't want armor on handgunners, Xbowmen or archers as they're already overpriced.

I'm not so sure.  I did some "math hammer" and found that the real question is how many shots you can get off with them before they are stuck in CC (or run off).  If you can get a full 2 or 3 rounds of fire they do roughly as well as H-to-H units in CC.  The rub comes when those ranged units get stuck into mano-a-mano and therefore their effectiveness compared to regular CC troops takes a big hit.

So, the question is how many shots can you get out of your ranged troops in relation to have many rounds of CC that your melee troops receive?  If the ranged troops can get a minimum of 2 they are a little less effective, but become more so if they get 3 and especially 4 rounds of fire.  If instead they are somehow limited to just one round (say, other rounds are stopped by magic or bad tactics) then ranged troops will always be inferior to CC troops.

Moral of the story is that when using ranged Empire core troops be sure to get at least 2-3 good rounds of shooting.  That tends to make them worth it.  If they are detachments who can do the stand and shoot thing and then pitch hit with a flank charge later, thereby allowing you to squeeze out their maximum usefulness.

Of course, the ability to fire in at least two rows is what really makes Empire Handgunner and Xbows worth it now.  Without that they definitely were overpriced.

Offline Cannonofdoom

  • Posts: 7746
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »
I think archers should be 6 points (10 for huntsmen with BS4 and scout). Crossbows and Handguns are a little overpriced with the way 8th works, but not to the point of uselessness. They still definitely have a place.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2011, 10:57:14 PM »
I have always thought our archers need to be cheaper, like 5pts.
But historically(and lets face, that is what the imperial state troops are taken from, it is early 16th holy roman empire) the crossbowmen and handgunners had no armour.

I wouldn't mind seeing some pikemen in our army. Just drop the spearmen altogether or make them in heavier armour as like an elite unit. Maybe even combine the stats of swordsmen into the spearmen and load em up with heavy armour or even full plate.
Then our swordsmen could be something else?
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline sebster

  • Posts: 293
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2011, 05:25:13 AM »
Way back in third ed handgunners actually did fire in two ranks.  Mind you, they fired so slowly the two ranks alternated, so you only got one rank firing each turn - now that was an underperforming missile troop.

To answer the OP's questions, I don't think missile troops need armour.  First up, armour restricts movement and that would restrict firing rate, so I don't really like it from a fluff perspective.  Second up, 6+ barely does anything in game - how often do your halberdiers get their saves?

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2011, 05:47:15 AM »
Way back in third ed handgunners actually did fire in two ranks.  Mind you, they fired so slowly the two ranks alternated, so you only got one rank firing each turn - now that was an underperforming missile troop.

To answer the OP's questions, I don't think missile troops need armour.  First up, armour restricts movement and that would restrict firing rate, so I don't really like it from a fluff perspective.  Second up, 6+ barely does anything in game - how often do your halberdiers get their saves?

Maybe once or twice a game.  While my first reason not to have this was that their cost would likely go up, the second reason is exactly the quote above.  6+ does nothing substantial.
I like the idea behind the forgeworld ironsides.  While the engineer guy (falk?) is with them they re-roll 1's to hit.  They also have heavy armor for only 2 more points apiece. 
Quote from: warhammerlord_soth
No beer was wasted.
They fired at a can of Heineken.
The end is Neigh! [sic]
Quote from: Swan-of-War
Curse you clearly-written rules!

Offline sebster

  • Posts: 293
Re: Archers And Handgunners need some armour
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2011, 08:27:23 AM »
Maybe once or twice a game.  While my first reason not to have this was that their cost would likely go up, the second reason is exactly the quote above.  6+ does nothing substantial.
I like the idea behind the forgeworld ironsides.  While the engineer guy (falk?) is with them they re-roll 1's to hit.  They also have heavy armor for only 2 more points apiece.

And that's with a unit that is there to get into combat, and hang around a while.  So for crossbowmen and handgunners, how often does anyone expect some light armour to make any difference to the game?

Even if it was given to them for free, would it make them any more effective on the field?

The way I see it, these guys are there to whittle down the core enemy targets, then once the melee is joined and they've got no target left they can assault the flanks of enemy units to disrupt, if you're in a pinch.

They could probably be a point cheaper, as part of an overall adjustment to the book that lowered troop values and increased war machine values.  Or they could have upgrade options like the forgeworld dude, but then you need to either control unit sizes or accept you're building the ruleset towards really big units.