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Author Topic: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)  (Read 7632 times)

Offline Northern Storm

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Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« on: January 23, 2010, 06:08:10 AM »
Free Heavy Armour upgrade.


Problem solved.


Thank you that is all.

Offline Robberbaron

  • Posts: 9
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 11:35:00 AM »
Looking at all the other options out there, I agree.

Comparism:

swordsmen have I 4, WS 4, Sv 4+ (CC)/ 5+ missle fire, S 3
spearmen have WS 3. I 3, Sv 5+, S 3, effective two ranks attack
halberdiers would then have WS 3, I 3, Sv 5+, S 4.

In effect, improving the survivability of halberdiers makes them a lot more viable as a unit. If survivability goes up to the same level as spearmen, you get to choose between better CC survivability (Swordsmen), more CC attacks (spearmen) or higher strength in CC (halberdiers).

In my opinion, bringing halberdier survivability up to par with the spearmen should vastly improve their usefulness. Unlike WS 4, which IMHO doesn't cut it compared to WS 3, S 4 does have a measurable effect on the combat effectiveness of the unit.

So, f you're worried about hitting, go with spears (more attacks). If you're worried about wounding, go with halberds. If you're worried about surviving a few rounds of CC, go with swordsmen, I 4 and Sv 4+ do make a difference to I 3, Sv 5+

In my recent games (Yay!) :icon_biggrin:  , Halberds were by far the most effective unit against high-T low-I infantry (like Orcs, Saurus Warriors, or Dwarves). :biggriin:  They did suffer from insufficient armour,  :|  but if you get a few decent rounds of hits in, wounding is much more assured than with the other core infantry options.

So yes, a Heavy Armour upgrade to halberdiers would make them far more viable as troops. Given the fluff of The Empire with lots of battles against Orcs and for example chaos beastmen, it would make sense to field halberds again.

So I agree. Heavy Armour is the way to go.

Mercenaries ... are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious, and without discipline...
Machiavell

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 09:12:19 AM »
And you really think a 6+ save (against most opponents) will do?

Dream on!

Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 09:43:49 PM »
And you really think a 6+ save (against most opponents) will do?

Dream on!

Most of the Empire's Infantry has a save that does very little when attacked by most opponents. But at least it's something.

But giving Halberdiers heavy armour would put them on par with their other state troops brethren and would thus be worth consideration vs Swordsmen and Spearmen.

All our saves suck. Even Swordsmen and Greatswords get taken down pretty quick. All Empire state tooops are soft and drop fast because they are basically wearing pants.

But as it stands, Halberdiers suck even when compared to the other brittle state troops because they rarely ever get to use their strength 4 attacks. At least spearmen and swordsmen can hit back with some luck.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 08:21:53 AM »
buiiiiiild a uuuuuuuuniiiiiiit 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Antimodes

  • Posts: 5
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 09:53:07 AM »
(RePost to correct place)

I think Halberdiers shall be better than the rest but not special like great swords.

8 pts for each, heavy armor, immune to panic.

They aren't veterans like greatswords thouh they shall be the best trained of the state troops

Offline Finlay

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2010, 01:43:51 AM »
way too expensive!
considering panic is half nullified by the detachment system anyway.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 07:10:22 PM »
Not only that, but Swordsmen are supposed to be the sem-elite, daring and dashing of the line troops. if anyone would get immune to panic, it should be them.

Halberdiers are supposed to be the bread and butter of the empire infantry, found in every province. The backbone of the Elector's forces. Heavy armour makes sense.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 09:26:07 PM »
Well, I guess heavy armour would be the best way to go.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 02:47:33 PM »
I don't think they'd be anything but punching bags with or without heavy armour.

All our saves suck.

Then why bother even thinking about giving one other unit a sucky option? Sounds like a waste of time to me.
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - S. Clemens

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Offline Generalisimo

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 06:43:20 PM »
Well, I really like the idea of heavy armor (even if it wouldn t do much against a chaos warrior).
But if they could make new models with heavy armor it would be great to paint  :ph34r:

Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 09:07:42 PM »
I don't think they'd be anything but punching bags with or without heavy armour.

All our saves suck.

Then why bother even thinking about giving one other unit a sucky option? Sounds like a waste of time to me.

Because then at least they would be comparable to the other State troops and a viable choice  vs swordsmen/spearmen. As it stands, they are not.

Offline Old Stonebeard

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2010, 12:31:36 AM »
Quote
So, if you're worried about hitting, go with spears (more attacks). If you're worried about wounding, go with halberds. If you're worried about surviving a few rounds of CC, go with swordsmen, I 4 and Sv 4+ do make a difference to I 3, Sv 5+

I approve of this logic. Now, how do we pitch it to GW?  :closed-eyes:

- Z
you know you can just play 8th, right?

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Even he (Grutch) is not that insensitive

Offline Minsc

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 01:49:57 AM »
The problem as I see it is that Swordsmen and Spearmen outperform Halberdiers as mother units and that free company outperform them as detatchments. (I'd rather have 2 WS3 S3 attacks each than 1 WS3 S4 attack each - light armour or not)


Offline Batu

  • Posts: 153
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2010, 08:53:41 PM »
Really honestly I think that giving the Halberid full plate and getting rid of their shield option (thus making them 6pts) is the best way to fix the Halbierd. It balances the unit without changing the way the Halbierd works in the BRB (thus making it too good for the Chaos etc) and doesnt make another Empire unit obsolete (like the spearmen).
It is not the army you must fear....But their General !

Offline Northern Storm

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2010, 09:15:30 PM »
Full Plate would be way too much. That and there is no way lore-wise that could be feasible. Full Plate is restricted to the elites of the Empire: Leaders, Knights and Greatswords. Thousands upon thousands of Halberdiers in full plate would cripple the Empire financially and would probably take 400 years for the few Dwarfs in the Empire to forge it all!

Heavy Armour is much more reasonable rules-wise and lore-wise. In my opinion, of course.

Offline saw555

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Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2010, 10:56:31 PM »
i agree, full plate is to much. Heavy armour is deffinatly needed to make these realy viable. Halberdiers are supposed to be the standard troops of the empire army, the fluff says every elector is required to have a standing unit of them.

Another idea i think could be good is to improve them beyond heavy armour, some special rules (not sure what though  :-D) and make them a 1+ option, this fits the fluff too then. They would need to be improved alot to make this viable though!
8th Ed results
                         W/D/L
Empire               7/1/2
brettonia            0/0/0
orcs and goblins 1/0/0

Offline jturner

  • Posts: 229
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2010, 04:28:50 AM »
why not just lower their point cost? say by a point?

I think I know what GW will do though....Halberdiers are minimum core choice of 1+ and min unit size 20. Every army has to have them :evil:
Quote from: Mathi Alfblut on April 07, 2010, 12:47:56 PM


    But the booty was staggering

Offline saw555

  • Posts: 55
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2010, 10:46:55 AM »
ye, and they will probibly be just as bad as they are now, if not worse
8th Ed results
                         W/D/L
Empire               7/1/2
brettonia            0/0/0
orcs and goblins 1/0/0

Offline KeswickGallagher

  • Posts: 3
Re: Beating the Halberdier dead horse (thoroughly)
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2010, 11:33:43 AM »
I actually like fielding halberds and they play well in my mind.

I never use them as a parent unit though (i'll agree there rubbish for that)

but what I always like to do is field a big unit of spearmen with a 10 man halberd squad the S4 has made a difference in a few games and seeing as there just 50 points and they have a ok chance of doing some damage to the enemy's flank with supporting charges I think they do quite well